Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 21st, 2024

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I told him I would.

[Jason Alsop]

It's a good example. Tom, who grew up near where Jamie's from, runs our co-op. Even our grocery store is a co-operative. He also hustles as a custodian in the evenings. He married into the Haida Nation. He's a chaníi, or a grandfather, to Haida children. It's a good example of this integration between our people and our communities over this history. We're quite interwoven. Again, we've all gone to school together. People have intermarried between the nation and our neighbours among the nation. It's very hard to separate everything. It actually upholds one of our Haida values of interconnectedness. As we get deeper into this work, and being an island nation, we appreciate and recognize the interconnectedness of everything.

I think this bill is important in ratifying this government-to-government relationship. Also, all of this work helps to bring greater clarity and stability to the people who live on the island and call it home, as we're trying to plan out what our future is together. In this in-between situation when recognition of the government isn't complete and title to the land isn't fully complete, people are trying to plan out their future and make investments, and there's a hesitancy to do that when things feel like they're uncertain to us and the people of the island.

All of this brings forward greater clarity and certainty in the relationship between us as governments and as people, as we continue to plan and carve out our future together.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Schmale and Mr. Battiste.

We will now move to the next speaker, Mr. Lemire, for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

President Alsop, thank you very much for accepting our invitation and sharing the history of the Haida nation with us.

I'd like you to tell us about the pressure your nation faced from the oil and gas companies, among others. It's my understanding that you're strongly in favour of more eco-friendly development.

In 2018, you stated that your main concerns had to do with LNG, fracked gas, tanker traffic and shipping through your territory, and the potential dangers of explosions and the impact on your community. I also learned that several members of your community were jailed for having defended one of the oldest forests in Canada in the 1980s.

What additional powers would a document such as Bill S-16 give you to allow you to defend your territory?

[Jason Alsop]

Sébastien, there's one good, simple question at the end, but a big buildup.

I think that what I want to share is what I've already touched on. Our land and our people have been exploited in this experience to date, with Crown governments looting and plundering the land, the seas and the resources for the wealth of others—for corporations and the government.

What we're working to do is turn that around so things are more equitable when it comes to how that equation works, but also how decisions are made by the people who live on the island—by the rightful title and rights owners—when it comes to things that are going to impact us in the short term and the long term.

We don't want to be seen as a people who are against everything, but we've been in this environment where there have been constant threats to our land and our seas, and processes that don't properly recognize the title and rights holders and the impacts that happen in our territories—whether it's the threat of oil tankers or increased LNG traffic. We're dealing with an introduced invasive green crab species, which is having a big impact on the ecosystem, and that's just one example. There are countless examples.

I would say to your question that this recognition doesn't give us any more powers than we already have. We operate under our inherent title and rights. We operate on the strength of the people, the nation and our ancestors. This bill doesn't give us any more power. That's up to us. That's our inherent title, our inherent rights, as the original people of Haida Gwaii.

However, what the bill does is help us interface with Canadian and western systems more clearly.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Alsop.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you, Mr. Lemire.

For our last round of questioning, I will turn the floor over to Mr. Bachrach for two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate Mr. Lemire's question. I was going to ask something about the north coast oil tanker moratorium, which is a piece of legislation that the Haida were really instrumental in seeing passed and something that the Conservative Party has promised to rescind as soon as possible if it's elected as government.

However, I won't ask about that. Instead, noting that Minister Anandasangaree is in the room and that we're going to be hearing from him next, I thought that perhaps, Gaagwiis, you could set the stage a little bit.

This is largely a bill that is recognizing something that's been taking place for 50 years, which is the self-government of the Haida people. It's an important step, but it's a simple piece of legislation that hopefully will provide the springboard for future work. I wonder if you could share with the committee what you hope we can get done as a Parliament. What's next? If this bill passes swiftly and we're given the opportunity to continue in this partnership with the Haida Nation, what's the next piece of work that you hope we can accomplish?

[Jason Alsop]

Haawa, Taylor.

There are two main pieces to follow from this. One is an internal piece of work. The nation does need to work together and look internally at how we would like to evolve from the status quo when it comes to the Indian Act and everything that's rolled up within that. There is a fundamental difference between status band members recognized under the Indian Act in our communities versus Haida citizens recognized under our constitution. How do we close that gap to make sure that all Haida citizens are being supported with the programs and services that they deserve under our system, and how do we work together with governments to achieve that?

Second, you've seen that our framework agreement, again, is a historic step by Canada to agree to negotiate and litigate at the same time as we try to resolve issues efficiently and responsibly in an orderly way together. You've seen that we've made progress with British Columbia with the “Rising Tide” Haida Title Lands Agreement. Originally, we started that process together as a tripartite negotiation, and we moved bilaterally with the province and completed that agreement.

Our hope is to continue to resolve title to the land, as it is a matter before the courts, and come to some resolution when it comes to title recognition throughout the land, similar to what we've done with B.C., but also to resolve it in the litigation. We want to show Canadians and everybody that we can achieve this outside of court and create more of an orderly process of transition and more certainty. As we've seen in the courts, we have a very strong case. We're submitting evidence. A title declaration, though, doesn't.... We're still sent back to the table to negotiate and figure out the terms of what this is going to look like and how it is going to impact everybody. We would like to just continue working on that now and not wait for the courts to dictate that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bachrach.

That will conclude our first panel.

Again, I want to thank President Alsop for being here in person and for his testimony. Congratulations on all the hard work to get to this point.

At this point, I'm going to briefly suspend while we get ready for our second panel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Colleagues, I'm calling this meeting back to order.

We are going to move right into our second panel.

I'd like to welcome the witnesses we have here today, including the Honourable Gary Anandasangaree, Canada's Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations. We also have, from the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, Danielle White, senior ADM, treaties and aboriginal government; and Paul Dyck, federal negotiations manager. From the Department of Justice, we have Bruce Hamilton, general counsel.

Minister, welcome. I will turn the floor over to you to give your five-minute opening remarks.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let me begin by congratulating you as the new chair of this committee. It's my first time back here since your chairship began.

I also want to welcome Danielle White, who, as you indicated, is our new senior ADM, as well as Paul Dyck and Bruce Hamilton, who is with the Department of Justice.

I want to express how pleased I am to be back here at this committee. I've spent many years here. I really appreciate the work that all of you do and the collaborative approach that you've undertaken.

Hello. Bonjour. Sángaay 'láa. I'm pleased to be joining you here today on the unceded traditional territory of the Anishinabe Algonquin people to speak about the Nang K̲'uula-Nang K̲’úulaas Recognition Agreement and the legislation that has been developed to implement this agreement.

I would like to thank everyone who has worked to get us to this point. I want to start by acknowledging the work of the Council of the Haida Nation and the entire Haida Nation, along with Gaagwiis Jason Alsop, for their determination and leadership in advocating for their vision of governance and self-determination for decades.

I want to thank the members of the other place, the Senate, for their hard work. I want to particularly acknowledge the work of Senator Greenwood as sponsor of this bill in the Senate.

I want to acknowledge the work of the Government of British Columbia, including retiring minister Murray Rankin.

I want to acknowledge the work of Taylor Bachrach, the MP for Skeena—Bulkley Valley, and his support during this process.

This summer, I had the privilege to be in Haida Gwaii for the first time. I came to know many of their leaders, who have trail-blazed and championed self-determination and stewardship. Getting to this step is a result of years of collaboration between the Haida Nation, British Columbia and Canada and is part of our ongoing work to undo colonial policies and approaches.

We're here, in large part, because of the relentless advocacy of the Haida people. Together, we are guided by landmark documents, including the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action and the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, particularly article 4.

The former approach of making decisions on behalf of indigenous peoples has shifted dramatically and irrevocably to an approach centred on supporting the aspirations of indigenous peoples and communities, or indigenous self-determination. The legislation we are discussing, Bill S-16, recognizes Haida governance and governing structures.

When this bill is passed, it will accomplish two very important things.

One, it will ratify that both Canada and British Columbia legally recognize that the Haida Nation holds inherent rights to governance and self-determination, and, two, it will affirm that the Council of the Haida Nation is authorized to make decisions on these rights. They will be able to act as a distinct legal entity with the capabilities of a natural person.

Haida have never ceded their right to self-determination, and our government recognizes that reality. This legislation will have Canada see the Haida Nation as they see themselves.

The federal government will continue to be a partner in the full implementation of Haida rights.

It hasn't been an easy journey. If I may, I'd like to explain how we got here. Indeed, the Council for the Haida Nation was created 50 years ago and began steps to reclaim its territory.

The 2021 “Changing Tide” framework for reconciliation came to fruition and has served as the foundation for a renewed process of incremental reconciliation negotiations.

In April 2023, Haida and British Columbia were able to sign an agreement and pass the Haida Nation Recognition Act.

Several months later, the federal government signed that agreement and formalized recognition, by British Columbia, of the Council of the Haida Nation and its director.

These agreements laid the groundwork for Bill S-16, which was co-developed in collaboration with the Haida Nation.

I'm asking you to join me in supporting this bill. It is through forward-looking legislation such as this that historic change is made, and our country becomes stronger as colonial structures are torn down and power is more equitably shared. We're moving towards a true nation-to-nation relationship, and that requires supporting self-determination. This is our unwavering path to reconciliation. It is not a matter of politics; it is a matter of inherent rights.

Haawa. Thank you. Merci. I look forward to your questions and comments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Minister.

With that, we'll go into our first round of questioning, starting with the Conservative Party and Mr. Zimmer for six minutes.

You have the floor.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you once again, Minister, for appearing.

As you said, Minister, you're here speaking to Bill S-16, an act respecting the recognition of the Haida Nation and the Council of the Haida Nation. I just have a question based on an article and concerns, I guess, in British Columbia. It's an article titled “B.C. formally recognizes Haida Nation's Aboriginal title to Haida Gwaii”, from April 14, 2024. I'm going to take some excerpts out and then ask you a question.

The agreement includes a commitment from the Haida to leave privately owned lands unchanged and under B.C. authority. Governance over the existing Crown land tenures and protected areas will now be negotiated in a process that must reconcile Haida and provincial law....

The agreement, which has been approved by the Haida Nation and will be enshrined in provincial legislation, says that Aboriginal title will not affect anyone's private property, nor local government jurisdiction and bylaws on Haida Gwaii. It also says public services including highways, airports, ferry terminals, health care and schools will not be affected. Residents will continue to receive municipal services and pay property taxes in the same way they do today....

A leading expert in Indigenous law in Canada, Thomas Isaac of Cassels Brock & Blackwell LLP, said the agreement creates more confusion for landowners on Haida Gwaii than the lingering uncertainty of the pending title case.

“The Crown is recognizing Aboriginal title over every square inch of Haida Gwaii. What we know from Supreme Court of Canada case law is that Aboriginal title is the exclusive right to land. At the same time, fee simple, privately owned land is the exclusive right to land. You can't have two exclusive rights to a single part of land”.....

What the president said previously in this committee, just minutes ago, was that he wanted to bring clarity to this issue. To bring clarity, Minister, can you speak to the concerns of private property owners that the Haida agreement has provisions that include a recognition of Haida title over fee simple lands?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Zimmer, for that important question.

Let me, at the outset, just acknowledge that this particular legislation does not include any discussion on title. This is primarily for the purpose of recognizing the Haida Nation as a government.

Having said that, I was at the provincial legislature when this legislation was introduced by Minister Rankin. The way I interpret this legislation, and the way title could coexist, is very similar to what Crown title is right now. If you look at any jurisdiction in Canada, you see there's an underlying Crown title that has been bestowed to the Crown since Confederation. In the case of provinces, it was transferred to them at some point when the provinces were established. The underlying Crown title is what is in question right now. That Crown title will be replaced at some point by title of the Haida Nation, which essentially means that they can coexist in exclusive purview. It's the underlying title we're talking about, which is Crown title, and on top of it is where private property interest, or fee simple, is bestowed. This is where the right to encumber, the right to put on a mortgage, a right to put liens and so on, or the actual certainty of ownership will be established.

Essentially speaking, this is very much a provincial promise, an undertaking of British Columbia. It is to replace what's called the underlying Crown title with the title of the Haida Nation. Of course, there's a lot more work to do, as the president rightfully said, to ensure there is certainty. However, my legal analysis—and I have a fair bit of understanding of property law—is that it's the underlying title that will be replaced from the Crown to Haida.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

That's all I have. I'll pass it back to my colleague Jamie.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for appearing here today.

I'm going to basically ask the same question I asked the president earlier. It was in regard to natural resources and their development. Specifically, we were speaking about lumber and the lumber industry, which is very important to British Columbia and to the economy, potentially, of that island, depending on how they choose to develop that. Obviously, this piece of legislation looks after the governance structure, but how do you see those, based on your previous answer, working together?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I think there's still a fair amount of work to do with respect to the other pieces of what is a longer-term conversation and a set of negotiations that will lead us towards full implementation of the aspirations of the Haida people. I spent about three days in Haida Gwaii, and I understand you did as well, Mr. Schmale. I've had many conversations with many who are in leadership and who are in different roles within the Haida Nation.

Their aspirations for their people and for their land are very similar to the aspirations of any people, which are to ensure that there's self-sufficiency and that they have full authority over the development of their region and of their lands. I believe that through negotiations, through discussions, they too will support industries that will benefit not just individual corporations, but also themselves and, collectively, the island. That includes natural resources. However, there are caveats, in the sense that it needs to be sustainable and it needs to have a longer-term view of protecting the environment.

UNDRIP already, in my opinion, addresses this issue in a fundamental way. It enables first nations that don't necessarily have title, in most cases, to assert the notion of free, prior and informed consent, which, interpreted in a real way after almost three years of this being legislation, is that development can take place, but it needs to take place in a manner that is in full informed consent of the impacted nation. I believe that, as title takes shape and as other agreements take shape, the same is true of the Haida Nation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Schmale.

With that, we'll move over to the Liberal Party in the six-minute round.

Mr. Battiste, the floor is yours.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Minister.

It appeared from the previous testimony that this legislation was driven by the Haida. Can you talk to us a little about the process of how it was co-developed, how it was negotiated and how it was ratified to ensure that we are confident that the Haida Nation is behind this?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Jaime.

This summer, I had the privilege of initialling three modern treaties in British Columbia, and each and every one of them—Kitsumkalum, Kitselas and K'ómoks—was in discussions for over 30 years, if not 35 years. They were painstakingly negotiated collectively as one agreement that encompasses the range of issues from treaty lands to, in some cases, jurisdiction over a range of issues. One thing I realize is that it took so long and there have been significant changes in the way that government looked at modern treaties and looked at issues such as extinguishment. These treaties covered everything that I think we have advanced in treaty negotiations.

The unique factor with the Haida government recognition is that it's an incremental approach. It's an approach that sets a frame as a starting point of selecting who the government is, which, according to article 4 of UNDRIP, enables the Haida people to establish their governing body. In this case, the Council of the Haida Nation will transform into the government of the Haida Nation. Then, we will be able to layer on additional aspects of what's in other treaties. It doesn't necessarily have to follow a formula. It will be at stages that the Haida people are ready to move towards.

I believe that, over time, this will be an alternative approach to the number of treaties we have, which are comprehensive. Here, there is an initial starting point, followed by what can only be described as a pace that we will need to maintain, as well as the Province of British Columbia, and that will be at the will of the Haida Nation.

I'm quite optimistic that we have really set a path here that is unique but also in line with the notion of self-determination by the Haida Nation, so that we can continue towards full self-determination as the years go.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you for that, Minister.

The GayGahlda “Changing Tide” framework for reconciliation, signed in 2021, lays out priorities for negotiations, including, for example, transfer of certain forest land, fisheries and marine matters, as well as negotiations around Haida governance. Could you please describe the time frame the Government of Canada anticipates for concluding the negotiations related to these outstanding priorities? How do you see the implementation of a series of government agreements going forward?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I'm unable to speak to an actual timeline or commit to a timeline. What I can say is that we are making significant progress on a range of issues, and those tables continue to be very active.

As we conclude negotiations on an element, sometimes it will require legislative acknowledgement. Sometimes it doesn't. In many cases, it does not. The essential bones of the overall path are the establishment of the government, which is what we're doing today.

In the case of British Columbia, there was a recognition of the title, as well, which in some respects we are also trying to replicate in the unique way that the federal government has a limited role within title that involves federal land.

Ultimately, I am satisfied with the pace we're going at, although not with the pace of the movement of legislation. As you are aware, something quite simple like Bill S-16 can be moved faster. I know it did take some time to get here, but I'm hoping that we will have the support of colleagues around the table to expedite this.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I'll ask you the same question I asked the president of Haida. Are you satisfied with this legislation as written, and would you like to see it passed expediently?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

In the interest of repeating something I said several months ago and not having been able to complete it, I will reiterate that I am very comfortable with this legislation. It is conclusive, and it is co-developed. It does have the backing of its people, of the Haida people, and I am satisfied that it should go through. I do think the urgency was underscored by the president.