Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 21st, 2024

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Battiste.

We'll move on to our next speaker.

Mr. Lemire for six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good day, Minister. Welcome to our committee.

President Alsop, from the Haida Nation, mentioned that his nation was working to clarify the situation and eliminate obstacles to exercising their right to self-determination within their territory.

When does the Government of Canada expect to conclude negotiations on outstanding priorities, including the transfer of forest lands and certain powers relating to fishing and maritime issues? Of course, there are also questions about the governance of the Haida nation.

According to the answer Mr. Alsop gave us earlier, we now know that Bill S-16, once passed, will not give him more powers to protect the territorial integrity of the Haida Nation.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you for the question.

I want to acknowledge the work that you've done with the Haida Nation.

I note that the federal government has been engaged with the Province of British Columbia over a number of years on advancing a range of issues. Unfortunately, similar to the last question, I can't actually give you a timeline, except to say that we're moving at speeds unseen before, with the expectation that we'll be able to conclude elements of self-determination over the coming years or even months. That will enable us to advance to the next stage of this, which is ultimately about having a comprehensive set of negotiated resolutions to issues that you've outlined, including fisheries, title and other elements of relationships within the region.

It's ongoing work that will take years; it's not going to happen within months, overall. We can get to different stages over a short period of time, but in terms of the overall framework, if you speak to the president, he will tell you that the longer vision will take some years to conclude.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Can you assure us that you have done your due diligence on all fronts, and that you will respond with concrete and sufficient means to enable the nation to move forward in this desired reconciliation and to peacefully and actively enjoy its territory?

Can you give us some examples of concrete steps you've taken to ensure that due diligence?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

This has been in the works for 50 years. The Haida people have been asserting their inherent right to self-determination essentially since contact. In a legal sense, as the president outlined, there was a point at which they couldn't even obtain legal counsel because it was barred by law. I believe that in the last several years, we have moved an incredible amount to ascertain the first element of this, which is governance.

Bill C-15, the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act, is a foundational document for Canada. It's a foundational document towards self-determination and recognition of indigenous rights. I believe that it has enabled us and, in many ways, has pushed us along in ensuring that we can move faster and more coherently on these issues.

The fact that we have a willing partner in the Province of British Columbia is a remarkable alignment that I acknowledge. I acknowledge the work of former minister Rankin, who was a former colleague of ours in Parliament. Together, we've been working in tandem towards moving the dial on this issue, with the Province of British Columbia leading the way and with us following, using our own internal mechanisms and accountability processes.

I am very confident about the work that has been done so far. I'm also very confident that we will be able to progress on the work ahead.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

If I may, Minister, I'd like to ask a follow-up question.

What precedent does this set for other nations aspiring to the same autonomy? Are there other similar bills that we can expect to have to examine? Are there any upcoming projects, either in British Columbia and elsewhere in Canada?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I believe I heard the term “independence”. I think the term is “self-determination”.

I was very deliberate in that clarification.

The path has been set through the Whitecap Dakota self-governance agreement that was put into law in 2023, if I'm not mistaken. That went through this committee. I forget the number of the bill. That was one of the first iterations of this, and this is following a very similar route.

I had the opportunity to meet with the Whitecap Dakota last week. There are other elements of self-determination that they're seeking. We're going to be commencing tables on discussions of those elements.

It's not necessarily novel. I think what is perhaps novel in the case of Haida Gwaii is that it is a very unique landscape. It's unmatched. There's nothing similar to that in the country. There are no overlapping communities or nations. In all senses, it was never ceded by any treaty or type of surrender. It's unique in that sense.

In terms of the governance piece, I think it's very similar in scope and action. I'm very confident that this is not a new precedent. It is something that we are very much following from the Whitecap.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you, Mr. Lemire.

We'll go now to our last questioner in the first round.

I'll turn the floor over to Mr. Bachrach for six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here and for your work on this important file.

I'd like to ask you a question about timing. This is a relatively simple bill. It's a little bit surprising that it's taken this long for Canada to recognize the government of the Haida, given that it just celebrated its 50th year under that model. I digress, but I know you probably share that frustration.

Given that the House of Commons right now is deadlocked in debating a privilege motion with no end in sight, how can we work together as parties? I'm sensing a strong level of support among all parties at this table to pass this bill into law. How can we work together? What opportunity exists to move this bill through third reading, ensure it gets royal assent and becomes Canadian law?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you for that question, Taylor. I think it's a very important question.

I was on this committee for many years, after we were elected in 2015. I've served two different terms here. One thing that I've noted, which is very clear to me, is that, notwithstanding what happens around us, within Parliament and the precinct, this committee acts in the best interest, in most cases, of the people we are here to serve, particularly first nations, Inuit and Métis.

While we may have political differences, I am always looking forward to reaching across the aisle and working with opposition, including Jamie, Sébastien and Lori, in your case. I think the notion of reconciliation is not a partisan issue. It's not one that one party has exclusivity over. It is a collective response that lies with all of us.

This is a moment in time and history when I think we can demonstrate this bipartisan nature. The Whitecap Dakota agreement is a perfect example of where we were able to obtain consent from all the parties. In fact, the legislation passed unanimously through the House. I think we're in a moment here where that same possibility exists, notwithstanding limitations in the House with the debate.

I would implore everyone here to work together and to reach out. I'm always available to discuss things further. I think this is in our collective interest. This is what reconciliation means. This is an uncontroversial piece of legislation and one that I think we can all get behind.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

You mentioned how long it has taken to get to this point. Out of pure curiosity, I wonder if you're aware of the Haida Nation expressing, in the past, their desire not to have to be registered as a society under the B.C. Societies Act in order to conduct their business and enter into agreements. How long have they been asking for this kind of recognition?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I have been in this portfolio since July of last year. Ever since that time, I have been aware of this and I've had direct conversations in which they have expressed frustrations.

I think the other side to this, Taylor, is that we have an opportunity. We now have something concrete going through the House. It's concluded at the Senate, and I think we could complete it over the next couple of weeks, once the work of this committee is complete. I appreciate that you have prioritized this, in some respects.

Once it goes back to the House, we should all find time—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Chair, as a point of order, can I ask my colleagues to take their conversation out to the hall if they insist on talking during the meeting?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach. I have paused your time for a second.

I want to remind members about that. If you need to have conversations, be mindful of the rest of the members of the committee, and of the minister and witnesses, who are providing testimony on a very important piece of legislation.

Mr. Bachrach, I will turn the microphone back over to you.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Minister, I know some of this conversation has strayed from the bill in front of us—which is about recognition—to the larger question of title. Some of it is in regard to the recent agreement between British Columbia and the Haida Nation. I read in the description that the provincial government has put out legislation recognizing that the Haida Nation has aboriginal title throughout all of Haida Gwaii.

I'm wondering why the federal government hasn't made a similar statement, and whether, in your mind—or in the minds of your department's lawyers—there is any doubt that this is true, given the unique context of Haida Gwaii, which you have referenced, yourself.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

This is an incremental approach. I think the first phase of this is the recognition of governance, which is what we're doing today.

Other matters, including title, will follow, in my opinion. I believe the federal government will recognize the limited areas in which the federal government has title. We will work with the Haida Nation to ascertain this and ensure it is recognized.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

You mentioned that the situation, up to this point, has involved the B.C. government leading, with your government following, which is good. We need followers.

Why hasn't the federal government led the conversation? Since the federal government has a unique relationship with indigenous peoples in this country, why hasn't it led that work?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I think the issue today is that we're here and we want to move this forward. We have made an enormous amount of effort to get here with the Province of British Columbia, as well as the president and the Haida Nation.

I think we're very close, and I hope to conclude this over the next few weeks.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

The time is up, I'm afraid, even with the extra time.

Thank you very much, Mr. Bachrach. You will have one more opportunity in the second round.

With that, I will turn the floor over to Mr. Shields for five minutes.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here. When you came in, we briefly had a conversation about the work you were doing in the past few days in western Canada.

I have been to Haida Gwaii. It was a great experience. I wish more people in Canada could go there. I really do, because there is such historical, strong culture there. It is important to see and experience that.

I'm thinking about the model that is developing here. We talk about economic reconciliation. It has been 50 years. Fifty years is a long time. I'm an old guy, so 50 years ago.... I'm still alive and many people in this room...50 years ago. I remember that. What is your view on how you changed the process? We are talking about economic reconciliation. We've seen 50 years. I agree that the federal level is where it's at. The provincial can be a challenge, but the federal level is the one where the leadership has to come from. Fifty years is a long time.

What are your thoughts?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Shields. We served on the heritage committee together, and I recall that for the National Day for Truth and Reconciliation, which is now on September 30, you and I worked very closely, and I always appreciated your insight.

Look, 50 years is a long time, but the work we started with the framework agreement to get here was a three-year process. There is pending litigation, which is aside from this. The recognition of title happened over 20 years ago. Ultimately, we're moving at a much faster pace. I agree that in order to have economic reconciliation, we need an element of certainty and we need an element of self-determination that will enable the Haida people to have assertion over their territory in line with principles such as the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

I believe we are in a moment in time when the movement toward the resolution of claims and past, outstanding discussions is at unprecedented rate. It's still at a frustrating rate, but it's still unprecedented in terms of how governments operate. Just by way of example, roughly 720 claims have gone through the specific claims process since 1972. We have solved half of them in the last nine years alone. Almost 50% of the claims that were resolved in the specific claims process have been resolved in the last nine years. Could it have been 75%? I wish it were. I think we are in very different place from where we started. We are moving at a pace that is much faster.

In some respects, I share your frustration. I would like to see this move a lot faster. Part of the challenge when we talk about treaty negotiations or comprehensive negotiations is that we sometimes get stuck on an issue, and because we can't move that issue, everything else stops. The approach here enables us to have multiple discussions on a range of issues. The ones we can land on and the ones we have agreement on, we conclude, and we move to the next issue and the next issue. I think that's the unique nature of where we are right now.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I understand how important it is at the grassroots level that they develop what they need to do, and the strength they bring to those discussions, because that's where it needs to build up from.

On the other side, I find a lot of resistance from bureaucracy in wanting change. Bureaucracy never wants change. I've been in situations where I was involved in listening to conversations and the bureaucracy didn't know, because the indigenous people had me on the line and didn't tell the other people I was there. The bureaucracy didn't want to change to what indigenous people wanted to do to innovate.

That's another challenge, leadership for government. With the bureaucracy we have, change is very difficult. That's the other side of leadership on this issue.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

One of the things I've tried to do is get out there in the community and speak to individuals, community members and leadership. Last week, I was in Saskatchewan and Alberta. My Liberal caucus members in Saskatchewan were just elated that I was there. My point is that we were able to really engage on the ground with impacted communities. I saw first-hand some of the challenges, and they had the opportunity to talk directly to me without anyone else.

Our culture is evolving. It's changing. I think we're much more focused on providing an indigenous-centred, self-determined approach to decision-making. That transformation is taking place as we speak.