Evidence of meeting #124 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gwaii.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jason Alsop  President, Council of the Haida Nation
Danielle White  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

What was the magic or winning formula for you? For the Haida people, what was it that led to a bill that is now close to being passed, and why might that not be happening as fast for other nations? What was the formula? How is it that the Haida people have the opportunity to be first and be recognized faster than other nations?

4 p.m.

President, Council of the Haida Nation

Jason Alsop

I'll talk about the bill in a second, but first, it's the work that was done before this. As I mentioned, the Council of the Haida Nation has been entering into agreements with Canada for over 30 years already. There's the nation-to-nation Gwaii Haanas Marine Agreement and the SG̲áan K̲ínghlas-Bowie Seamount agreement. We've been entering into nation-to-nation agreements already for many years. There's a whole track record showing how we work together, government to government, committing to the processes that both parties have agreed to.

In the process of this bill, the success has been twofold. I have to acknowledge that we have an active Haida title litigation case that's been on the books now for over 20 years. We put forward our position that the Haida Nation is a title and rights holder and the CHN, the Council of the Haida Nation, is the government, and we're building on that work of getting to a framework agreement.

With this bill, it hasn't felt like a quick process for us. We started in the Senate in February 2023. It's felt like a long time for us, so we're excited to hopefully see it get through here and get through the House. I think there's been a lot of open communication between us and the government, and there's been support from all of the parties in this process.

I want to recognize Jamie Schmale for coming out to Haida Gwaii to take a look and meet us, as well as you, Sébastien, and everybody for making the time to hear us and understand this bill.

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Thank you, Mr. Lemire.

Next, we'll go over to a visiting member of the committee.

Mr. Bachrach, you have six minutes.

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome back to Ottawa, Gaagwiis. It's good to have you here before the committee and to be addressing this very important piece of legislation.

I want to start by recognizing members for passing this bill rapidly through second reading and getting it to committee, where we can discuss its contents. It originated in the Senate, and I think its passage through the Senate was quite efficient. It's good to see it here at last, and hopefully we can deal with it in good order.

I want to take a moment—I hope you don't mind—while we're talking about the Haida and Haida Gwaii to just briefly offer my heartfelt congratulations to Laanas Tamara Davidson, who on Saturday became the very first MLA of Haida descent in British Columbia's history for the riding of North Coast-Haida Gwaii. I know she's going to be a tremendous representative for all people on the North Coast. The fact that she's from Haida Gwaii and she represents this historic first is a really special thing that I thought was worth mentioning. She was previously an elected member of the Council of the Haida Nation.

I'll start with the timing of this and the sense of urgency. Gaagwiis, why is it important that the committee do its work in an efficient way and that the House consider this bill as quickly as possible?

4:05 p.m.

President, Council of the Haida Nation

Jason Alsop

Haawa, Taylor.

As I think I've iterated here, it was 50 years in the making, since we formed our Council of the Haida Nation to represent the Haida Nation when it comes to title and rights to the land and the sea and all of Haida Gwaii. This agreement is important, not only to catch up to B.C. and have mirroring legislation and recognition from both governments as we move forward. I think also at the forefront, and most pressing for the Haida Nation, is the recognition that this has all been about trying to continue to seek recognition of title to our lands. We've gotten there with the province. This work stems not only from litigation but also from our framework agreement where Canada is committed to negotiate based on the recognition of title and rights throughout the land. It is our pursuit to continue to seek that recognition of title from Canada as well that mirrors what we've been able to do with British Columbia.

Again, it's continuing to build on our foundation of success in working together and moving forward from this chapter of denial when it comes to title and rights. Particularly in the example of Haida Gwaii, again, there are no overlapping interests of other nations. It's a clear example of our self-governance and self-determination. It's a very strong case that we're continuing to move through the courts and negotiate at the same time. For all our people's interests, we're all trying to work in good faith, to settle what we can government to government, to not leave the courts to decide things that we should be able to sort out as people, and to save taxpayer dollars—to save all of us dollars—in that process.

Getting this legislation completed and through the House is an important milestone to complete part of the work that we've committed to together, the Haida and Canada, and to continue to build on it.

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

I think it's fair to say that the Haida are really leading the way in terms of some of these agreements and recognition of title outside of litigation. My understanding is that the B.C. agreement was the first time in Canadian history that aboriginal title was affirmed without going to court.

What is it about the Haida Gwaii context that has made it unique or has allowed it to move forward in the way that it has?

4:10 p.m.

President, Council of the Haida Nation

Jason Alsop

Haida Gwaii, as I mentioned, is one nation and one voice. We've come together to represent our interests with the government, and we have 50 years of experience with the self-government process already.

There's a level of maturity there in how we work together among our own different jurisdictions—between our hereditary system at the village council level and the Council of the Haida Nation across the territory—in stewarding the lands and waters. We also have been building good relationships with the people who've come to call Haida Gwaii home and who've settled on Haida Gwaii. We co-operate in matters of emergencies and public service and have recognition as an islands community that we're all better off working together. The interests of the Haida Nation align a lot with the interests of islanders when it comes to wanting to see....

Our experience has seen vast amounts of resources and wealth leave Haida Gwaii through the forest industry and the fishing industry, with very little ever coming back to be reinvested in communities and infrastructure. We don't have any swimming pools, recreation centres or anything to show for the billions of dollars that have been taken off our islands.

Everybody who lives on Haida Gwaii recognizes that, working together, we can do better for Haida Gwaii and make lives better for everybody. That's the commitment we've made in our framework agreement. It's to improve the lives of the islands community, which is the Haida, our municipal communities and everybody who lives on Haida Gwaii. There's that recognition when you're out there.

It takes all of us to keep society going—volunteering and keeping all the recreational opportunities. We all go to school together. We're quite integrated. We have protocol agreements with all of the municipal communities. We meet monthly—myself, the elected leaders from Skidegate and Old Massett, and the mayors in regional districts.

It's to recognize the economy of scale that we need over time to provide better services. We all need to work together and use all of the public money in a better, more efficient way. There's a lot of willingness in relationships built over time, and also for a lot of new, younger people who are moving to Haida Gwaii because they've seen the progressive approaches that we've taken. They're interested in being there to raise their families in this environment, where we all work together and want to figure these things out.

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Thank you so much, Mr. Bachrach.

That's going to wrap up our first round. We're going to do an abridged second round here. Each party will have an opportunity to ask questions.

We'll start with Mr. Schmale for five minutes.

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. President, for coming. It's great to see you again. I do appreciate the shout-outs in regard to your hospitality. I did enjoy meeting some of the members of the island and your citizens. We had a great time and a great conversation. You did clear up a lot of questions I had once that bill was tabled. I did appreciate your taking the time to go through it.

What I'm going to ask you is stuff we already covered when we met and in subsequent conversations. It's also just to basically pick up where you left off. Even looking at your website for the Council of the Haida Nation, your website outlines “self-sufficiency”. You're talking about economic development. You're talking about taxation. You're talking about charting and moving forward on that path. As I told you in person, that's something this side supports.

I want to go on to the natural resources part, because that's one thing.... We did talk about the lumber industry being very important to that area. How do you see that playing out? How do you see that relationship moving forward in terms of economic reconciliation as a whole?

4:15 p.m.

President, Council of the Haida Nation

Jason Alsop

Thanks, Jamie.

Bringing up the constitution, in the Haida Nation constitution, our mandate is to steward the lands and waters but also to continue to strive for sovereignty and self-sufficiency for the nation and the island.

I'll reel it back a little bit, and then get more into your direct question. The self-sufficiency part is maybe threefold. One part is that, as a government and as a nation, we need to get to the place where all of those revenues aren't leaving Haida Gwaii and going to Victoria or Ottawa. We need to figure out that equation of what's needed to run government on the island, the nation and local governments and continue to build towards that self-sufficiency, but also recognize that part of this process is coming to terms with the fact that we are part of Canada and British Columbia and this Confederation, and how does all this work?

You know, we've been in this period without agreements and without formalizing it. Sometimes it's been like we're acknowledging each other but not acknowledging each other, and we have still found ways to navigate it. It starts to get more formal as we continue down this path. Also, at an individual, household, community and clan level, our benchmark is our ancestors. The Haida Nation, before the coming of outsiders and the imposition of Crown governments, was self-sufficient and sovereign. We had vast cedars and an ability to build all our own housing, make our own canoes for transportation and add value. Haida art is known around the world. Totem poles come from Haida Gwaii and are known globally.

Our people were using the resources in a respectful and sustainable way, adding value, bringing them to the mainland for trade for things that we didn't have on the island that could come from across Canada to the coast, and we traded beyond the coast down into California and part of that extensive trade network. We have a history of being self-sufficient and knowing how to use Haida Gwaii to sustain ourselves. That was disrupted with the Indian Act system. We became dependent on government for services, and they restricted our use of the territory to meet our needs. A lot of this is about continuing to heal and unpack those learned behaviours to get back to that self-sufficiency that we had at clan and village levels and on a national level.

With that said, a lot of the value has been extracted, so the environment we're working in now is in a big deficit. There are a lot of environmental and ecosystem damages and challenges that need to be repaired.

We are also in this reconciliation process with the province and taking them to court over a tree farm licence transfer. We came to acquire the largest tree farm licence on Haida Gwaii, so we're one of the largest employers in the forest industry currently. We've encouraged many of our members to become contractors and small business owners. We are right in the middle of this web of trying to find a balance between creating meaningful careers and the restoration of Haida Gwaii through the stewardship economy. We have a number of different trusts that provide resources for stewardship work and work at the nation, as well as carbon credits. We're part of the largest—

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Mr. Alsop, I'm afraid we are running late, so I'm going to have to ask you to wrap up here.

4:20 p.m.

President, Council of the Haida Nation

Jason Alsop

I was just getting to the punchline.

Haawa, Jamie. We're committed to the economic component of this by working with islanders and just looking at what's here, what we need, what's leaving, what the leakage is and how we really just work together with our people who live on the island to sort out the best use of the land to balance out all the interests.

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Thank you very much, Mr. Schmale.

Next, we will be going to Mr. Battiste for five minutes.

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Thank you, President Alsop. I want to congratulate you for getting this done and for this progress to where we are today.

You mentioned in your comments that when we hear from people in this committee, we often hear from Indian Act chiefs, councils and sometimes grand chiefs, but you come here on behalf of the Haida Nation. It's such a tremendous feat in itself to get ratification and buy-in from an entire nation to get to a point where you've been able to have them look at Canada as a partner and say that we can take this journey together.

Would you be able to tell us a little bit about how you've come to this journey of being able to work as a nation, on behalf of the nation, as opposed to individual Indian Act bands?

4:20 p.m.

President, Council of the Haida Nation

Jason Alsop

I've been fortunate to inherit the hard work of many who've come before me. I'll be the first to acknowledge that. It was the chief councillors and the band councillors of the early days who recognized that the work of running the community in town and trying to pursue the land title was too much. It was a lot of work. They brought some funds and initiated a council dedicated specifically to this. It started out with that early co-operation.

What really underpins this unity and collective approach is the hereditary system. The surviving members of our nation, early in the contact period.... I have to share this. Estimates of our population pre-contact range from 20,000 to 50,000 people at different times. With the coming of smallpox and other introduced diseases, there was a point in the early 1900s when our population was reduced to about 600 people or just under 600 people on Haida Gwaii.

The surviving hereditary chiefs, title holders and all of the people came together collectively to ensure that we would move forward with one voice and that together we would all manage the territory. We still all recognize each other's traditional territories, but we move as a nation. We're in a survival mode. That's been reaffirmed in the constitution through a Haida Accord document that everyone has committed to collectively work through. There have been patience, persistence and discipline along the way.

According to our constitution, in our law-making authority through our House of Assembly, our votes are by a three-quarter majority. Anything that moves through has the strong support of three quarters of the people in the process, which reflects the nation. Some things that come down to that very close margin can sometimes create greater division, but this three-quarter majority approach, I think, has also been quite strong. It's the commitment of everybody to continue to participate and support each other in this journey.

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Thank you, President.

President, are you satisfied with the current legislation as written, and would you like to see it passed expediently?

4:25 p.m.

President, Council of the Haida Nation

Jason Alsop

I am satisfied, and we would like to see it passed expediently, yes.

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

I have no more questions.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

Can I just ask something?

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Absolutely not.

Voices

Oh, oh!

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

It will be for two seconds. It will be good.

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Okay, go ahead, Mr. Schmale.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

Thank you.

I did appreciate the president's time. He introduced me to the manager of the co-op on the island, who grew up about 15 minutes from where I did. I grew up in Bobcaygeon, and they grew up in Dunsford. I also want to say that you gave me a lot of stories about him as well, about his contribution. He is basically one of many on the island who have found a great space to call home.

Do you want to add anything else about how everyone seems to be working together? You put it earlier in your words that it didn't matter if it was Haida Gwaii members or non-indigenous people. There seems to be a real cohesion on the island.

4:25 p.m.

President, Council of the Haida Nation

Jason Alsop

Thanks, Jamie.

I didn't realize that Tom from the co-op was going to get a shout-out today.