I understand how important it is at the grassroots level that they develop what they need to do, and the strength they bring to those discussions, because that's where it needs to build up from.
On the other side, I find a lot of resistance from bureaucracy in wanting change. Bureaucracy never wants change. I've been in situations where I was involved in listening to conversations and the bureaucracy didn't know, because the indigenous people had me on the line and didn't tell the other people I was there. The bureaucracy didn't want to change to what indigenous people wanted to do to innovate.
That's another challenge, leadership for government. With the bureaucracy we have, change is very difficult. That's the other side of leadership on this issue.