Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 28th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I see Ms. Idlout also has her hand up.

I'll turn the floor over to Ms. Idlout.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

We would like to add to this topic, because we are not getting the answers to the questions we are asking. I also put a question to Minister Vandal, but I didn't get an answer.

With Minister Hajdu, I want to say that I want to support the member who just spoke. The chair should enforce the rule that the minister should answer the questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout.

My view is that the ministers have provided answers to the questions. I know they might not be satisfactory to members here, but ministers have been answering questions. I would add that they were also interrupted before they were able to get to the conclusion of many of those answers.

I would ask ministers to continue to answer and respond directly to the substance of the questions members are asking them. I'll leave it at that right now.

With that, we're moving into our second round of questions. I have Mr. McLeod for five minutes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the presenters. It's always a very interesting discussion when ministers join us.

Most of you know that I've been advocating for indigenous rights my whole life and trying to make sure that our indigenous people have a better quality of life. The reason I got involved in politics was the extreme poverty that I witnessed as I grew up in the small indigenous communities in the north. I listened to our elders speak about signing treaties and signing the scrip so that we could coexist. However, what was in the agreements was not honoured or not carried out.

We have seen, right across the Northwest Territories, people working toward signing modern treaties. These treaties are intended to provide clarity. In the Northwest Territories, we have 15 tables where people are discussing different issues. Hopefully, we're going to come to a point where everybody will come to an agreement.

The Prime Minister was very clear in 2015 that we would be moving forward in a nation-to-nation type of arrangement. However, there are still some policies that are old and that do not fit. Some of them irritate me quite a bit. The comprehensive claim is the one that I think we need to pay some attention to and see if there's a way to replace it.

I want to ask Gary Anandasangaree a question about where things are, what kind of work is being done by him and the department, his office, to advance recognition of rights in Northwest Territories. We heard what is going on in B.C. It seemed to work for them. We're very keen to see if that's something that could be considered in the Northwest Territories. Also, could he give us an update on what he's doing to resolve some of the outstanding land claims and self-government negotiations that are happening?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Mike, for that question and those comments.

It was really good to be at the table with the NWT premier, as well as the partners from NWT, several weeks ago. I think you were there as well. We had a comprehensive discussion on a range of issues, especially relating to modern treaty holders. Through them, we have been able to introduce legislation, Bill C-77, on the commissioner for modern treaty implementation. I believe there is progress being made.

We are in discussions on issues, such as education with the Tłı̨chǫ government, that are going to be critical for self-determination over issues such as education. The challenge is that we have not been able to land and complete a treaty in recent years. Much work has been done over the years, but there are still elements that we need to complete.

I want to underscore and say again for the record that the comprehensive land claims policy is not something that we are currently implementing. It is a very different conversation when we talk about modern treaties right now. We've moved away from that, and we are in an era where we are at RIRSD tables, where rights recognition is a cornerstone

I want Ms. Gideon to have a chance to add to that in terms of the comprehensive land claims policy, because I have said it on a number of occasions and maybe we have not been very understanding of each other.

I'll ask Val to add some light to this.

[Valerie Gideon, Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs]

I was just going to say—

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Mr. Chair, I have one more question, so I'm just going to jump into it.

First of all, I want to say, if we're not implementing the comprehensive claim policy, get rid of it. Why keep it if it's no good? We're not implementing it because it's no good.

I want to ask one more question about the historic levels of funding that we've been receiving over the last few years for housing, for governance and for a number of different things. They're not long-term commitments. We're going to come to an end of some of these funding cycles. What are the plans for the next steps?

We don't have reserves, so—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Give a very brief answer.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Look at budget 2021 and budget 2022. You're right. Significant money has flowed towards infrastructure and housing. For the urban, rural and northern housing, $4 billion will be distributed in short order, and there is direct money that will be going to the territories, including NWT, and modern treaty partners. We look forward to that significant level of funding. It will enable additional housing to be built.

One of the challenges in NWT that we have heard about, frankly, is climate change. The barges are unable to move, for example, to bring equipment and products to the construction. However, the commitment—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Minister, I'm sorry. I'm going to have to cut you off there. We're well over time, as much as I'd love to hear your answer. I'm sure many others would as well.

Mr. Lemire, you now have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Pseudo-indigenous people, or pretendians in English, are non-indigenous people who falsely claim indigenous ancestry or identity to take advantage of it for personal gain. What are you going to do about this?

You've got the situation of the Algonquins of Ontario. The Chalk River project was socially sanctioned despite objections from nearly every Algonquin and Anishinabe nation.

There's the Métis of Ontario and the Métis National Council who lost their raison d'être with the scrapping of Bill C‑53, but continue to receive federal funding.

The federal government awards contracts to companies that falsely claim to be indigenous. Canadian Heritage provides grants for indigenous cultural events organized by non-indigenous artists.

Academics and civil servants occupy positions designated for indigenous people, but no one has looked into whether they really are indigenous or not.

There are pretendians serving as an insurance policy in consultations conducted by the nuclear, gas and oil industries, and many other companies.

How far will things go? Will we finally see the end of it? Are you finally going to put your foot down? What’s going on?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Lemire.

Look, it has been a challenge.

There have been a number of areas where the issue of identity or indigeneity has come up. From a departmental perspective, we have section 35 rights holders. They are recognized by the Constitution, but there is a process to attain that recognition. It's a very diligent process. Sometimes it's very frustrating for the people going through this process. However, we have not taken any shortcuts in order to ensure that the integrity of that recognition is sacrosanct. It's not something that can be compromised. At every step of the way.... Section 35 rights holders are those who are already recognized.

The groups you identified are not section 35 rights holders. We do, however, fund organizations, entities or collectives that are asserting section 35 rights for the purpose of ensuring they are able to ascertain or explore that right. I think it is in our best interest to continue doing that, because it is important. If their assertions are correct, we don't want to be disadvantaging them in the long term.

During COVID, we took some exceptional steps to ensure we didn't leave anyone behind. Post-COVID, we have been very diligent in terms of ensuring that only those with section 35 rights are able to exercise that identity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lemire.

Next, we're going to Ms. Idlout for two and a half minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Chairperson.

If I can, I'll continue on from my last comments and questions.

There's a difference between wanting an answer and just being told an answer. I'll give you this as an example. If I ask, “What's one plus one?”, what's the answer? The right answer would be two, but the answers we are getting are just numbers. They're just talking about the topic and not really answering the question. That's my first comment.

I want to tell these ministers, while they're listening, that we, as indigenous people, want to work toward reconciliation, but they're not working toward reconciliation. There are three items. The first two are funding and rights, and the third is having relations. For example, when there's an agreement with indigenous peoples, these are not enough. We've just heard that first nations are not happy. If it were to be signed, it would break our rights because they are not following the steps they need to be following.

As ministers, when you need to provide an answer, it leads us to frustration when we're not getting the answers. How are you going to answer these questions? Through this standing committee, we are trying to work together. How can we work together if you are not answering our questions properly?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

We are over the time, but I want to get a very brief answer to the question that Ms. Idlout had for Mr. Vandal.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

With all due respect to MP Idlout, I reject the premise of that question. I think our government has worked nation to nation since 2015. We've done some really hard things. We haven't been perfect, but incredible progress has been made on any number of issues, including co-developed legislation, removing boil water advisories and bringing forward C-92 on indigenous child welfare.

I've been to many meetings where we sat with Inuit leadership for hours. Many ministers were present, including the Prime Minister, listening to priorities, and we're going to continue to do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout.

Next, we're going to move to Mr. Melillo for five minutes.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the ministers for being here for this discussion.

It has been mentioned already, Minister Vandal, that you will not be re-offering in the next election. I just want to say—and I believe I speak on behalf of everyone here at the committee—we are really going to miss your interactions with Mr. Zimmer. I wanted to make sure I got that on the record. There's never a dull moment.

For my questions, I want to turn to my northern Ontario neighbour, Minister Hajdu.

Minister, I want to ask you about policing specifically.

Recently, the Province of Alberta and National Chief Woodhouse put out a joint statement calling on the government to declare first nations police services as essential services. That's something the Province of Alberta is looking to move toward, which I think is a great step. This is something I believe is vitally important for first nations, especially, frankly, after nine years of your government, during which we have seen crime increasing. We have seen overdoses and overdose deaths unfortunately increasing. All of these challenges are happening right across the country and, unfortunately, first nations are also not immune to those challenges. It speaks to the need for more policing and more resources for first nations policing.

Your government promised, I believe two years ago, that this would be a promise fulfilled, and we have seen very little action to date on that. Can you speak to why your government is dragging its feet on something as essential as first nations policing?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much.

Through the chair, I hope the member has had an opportunity to visit the many communities in his riding in order to see how incredible they are. He's right. Remote communities are challenged with policing, health care and infrastructure. That's why Minister LeBlanc is seized with the work of co-developing a framework with first nations.

You are a member of this committee. You know that co-development work is careful work, and it is listening work. Minister LeBlanc is doing that as we speak.

I will also say that, through the department, I have had the opportunity to be with.... We also support communities on crime prevention through something called the pathways program. This attempts to meet communities where they're at, in terms of reducing the need—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

—for enforcement and working on building up protective features in communities that can lead to reduced crime and social crises.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Minister. I appreciate that. I'm sure you can appreciate that I have little time here.

I want to ask you this: You mentioned Minister LeBlanc and the work he is doing. From a first nations policing angle specifically, can you speak about what work you have been doing with the minister to advance that?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Certainly, as you know, I have had many meetings, including visiting many communities in northern Ontario and across the country. Policing comes up. We diligently make sure that the information shared with me is shared across the government. I have certainly been supporting Minister LeBlanc in the work he is doing with the AFN and other partners.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to ask you this, specifically: Two first nations in my riding announced over the summer that they were going to withdraw from the Treaty Three Police Service. They cited that they did not feel the service was adequate. I know Treaty Three Police has remarkable people working in their organization. I know they are also under-resourced, which is, I believe, the direct cause of why we saw those two communities pull out.

I also heard, through meetings with Treaty Three Police, that it's not necessarily just about a lack of funding. It's also about restrictions on funding. For example, they will sometimes receive funding from the government, but only for a specific thing, such as a police cruiser. That might not be something that is actually needed. One of the major constraints is, frankly, your government being overbearing and dictating to police departments what they can and cannot spend their funding on.

Are you moving to address this and ensure first nations police services have the freedom to allocate funding as they see fit?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you.

I think Treaty Three Police Service is a good example of a tripartite approach to policing. As you know, the federal government funds a portion of policing, and the province funds a portion of policing. In some cases, it's expected to provide those policing services. Obviously, some communities go without in the province of Ontario, as a result of, I would say, continued discrimination in access to services for first nations people in remote communities. We will continue to work with first nations, provinces and policy experts to make sure that whatever we co-develop will be through the lens of self-determination.

I'm glad to hear you speak about that, because it's the foundation of Bill C-61, the water legislation—as you know. It's about restoring self-determination so first nations communities have programs they are in control of that meet their needs. Therefore, I'll look forward to your advocacy at the provincial level as well. I know you know many of those people.