Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 4th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Welcome to meeting number 128 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

I want to start by acknowledging that we are gathered on the ancestral and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people and to express gratitude that we're able to do the important work of this committee on lands that they have stewarded since time immemorial.

Also, before going any further, it's with sadness that I want to start our meeting today by taking note of the passing of the Honourable Murray Sinclair.

Mr. Sinclair was a pioneer in indigenous law, revered elder, senator and a tireless advocate for justice and reconciliation. Senator Sinclair's legacy is deeply embedded in the heart of this nation, from his work as the first indigenous judge in Manitoba to his pivotal role as chair of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

Through his wisdom, compassion, courage and commitment to building consensus, Senator Sinclair illuminated the painful truths of residential schools and provided Canada with a path forward through the 94 calls to action. His contributions have forever transformed our collective journey towards reconciliation, leaving an indelible mark on generations to come. His work as a pioneering indigenous lawyer laid the way for many and, indeed, helped inspire me to get into this line of work as well.

Our thoughts are with his family and friends and all those who are touched by his work and spirit. We're grateful for his life, his vision, his service and contribution to Canada, which will continue to guide us as we walk the path of healing and justice.

Meegwetch.

There are a number of members of this committee who asked to make an intervention to take note of his passing as well, so I'd like to open it up to members of the committee.

I know it's very difficult to do this in 90 seconds or less, given the incredible contributions of Mr. Sinclair to our country, but if you could try to make your interventions within that framework, that would be much appreciated.

I see that Mr. Carr has raised his hand.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to speak very briefly about Senator Sinclair.

I first got to work with him in earnest when I was a young staffer at Canadian Heritage, and we were trying to pass legislation that would help to protect indigenous languages in Canada. Murray was the person who we always turned to for advice and guidance. It was remarkable to watch how measured he was and how wise he was. I was truly in awe of him and, to this day, have not seen a public figure as universally revered as Senator Sinclair was.

When I returned home after working here in Ottawa, I got back into education, and I had the fortunate opportunity to work with him in a variety of other capacities. He was always very active in helping educators in Manitoba and across the country make sense of where we were going and building upon the foundation that he had laid through the tremendously important work in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

What I am thinking about today, in addition to, of course, Senator Sinclair and his family, including his son Niigaan, who was a teacher of mine in high school, is that he was famous for saying that education got us into this mess and that education will get us out of this mess.

Mr. Chair, it's truly a privilege to be at this table with colleagues as we discuss the important work ahead and as a representative for Manitoba to have the opportunity to pay tribute to Senator Sinclair. Thank you for the opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Carr.

I have Mr. Hanley next.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Leadership, learnedness, wisdom, compassion, composure—those are some of the words that come to mind as I think of Senator Sinclair. Indeed, I consider Murray Sinclair to be a founding father of truth and reconciliation for Canada, but I'd like to give a more personal perspective.

I first met Mr. Sinclair when he came to a special meeting of the Yukon Medical Association in 2014, and I would say that meeting was a turning point in our medical community's journey of reconciliation. Many physicians had heard of residential schools, but they had never quite related that history to clinical encounters and how the residential school experience, either direct or through generational trauma, in other words, one child's direct experience in residential school, carries that trauma on through the generations, and that trauma in turn influences not just the health of first nations people but also whether they present for care and how they present for care.

It's so important for health care providers to understand the enduring effects of residential schools, and Mr. Sinclair was instrumental in laying the foundation. I remember feeling in myself how I transformed from more or less superficial knowledge to the beginning of a much more profound understanding. There were many tears in a silent and captivated room when Mr. Sinclair spoke, and I could see the light of realization coming into the faces of many of my colleagues.

He was an expert in law, residential schools and Canadian history, but ultimately a person who was able through his personal experience to tell the story of residential schools that went straight to the heart, inspiring a commitment not just to listen and to understand, but to actively participate in undoing the wrongs of the past, to integrate awareness of systemic racism, and to do better in meeting the needs and recognizing the leadership of Yukon first nations.

Thank you, Mr. Sinclair, for all that you contributed to Canada's growth in truth and reconciliation.

I extend my sincere and deep condolences to Mr. Sinclair's family.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hanley.

Next, I'm going to turn the floor over to Mr. Schmale.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you, Chair, for the opportunity to say a few words to celebrate the remarkable life and achievements of a true champion of justice and reconciliation, of course, the Honourable Murray Sinclair. He was a distinguished lawyer, a senator, and the first indigenous person to serve as chief justice of the Manitoba Court of Queen's Bench. Justice Sinclair's journey was a testament to the power of resilience, advocacy and vision.

As we know, he was born in 1951 in the small community of St. Peter's, Manitoba. He faced a number of challenges as a member of the Selkirk First Nation. His early experiences instilled in him a profound understanding of the injustices faced by indigenous peoples in Canada. Rather than being deterred, he channelled his experiences into a lifelong commitment to advocacy and change. Of course, his educational path was nothing short of inspiring. He obtained his law degree from the University of Manitoba in 1979, and he was one of the first indigenous lawyers in Canada, and that law career just flourished. I think it was his role as chair of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that truly brought him to the forefront of the national consciousness. That happened in 2019.

As many have said, his work has had a profound impact on countless lives. His advocacy for education, justice and health, and equity for indigenous peoples has inspired a new generation of leaders. It was mentioned earlier that one of the quotes he is well known for—there are many—is that education is the key to reconciliation. He would say, as Mr. Carr pointed out, that education got us into this mess and education will get us out of it.

As was pointed out earlier, aside from his formal roles, he was a mentor to many. He was a role model, a beacon of hope.

I think that is a very quick synopsis of what he did, but I could go on for much, much longer. I appreciate this opportunity, and on behalf of the official opposition here, I'd like to express our deep gratitude to Justice Murray Sinclair for his unwavering dedication, his wisdom and his profound humanity.

I wish to extend condolences to his family and friends. May he rest in peace.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Schmale.

I have Ms. Idlout next.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Regarding Justice Sinclair, I do have a short message. We all know that he tremendously helped indigenous people, especially regarding the truth and reconciliation movement.

I share my love with his family. They are going through a difficult time. Although his children are getting older, it's the loss of a parent. We feel empathy.

The family did say they don't want to receive any flowers. Instead of sending flowers, you can make a donation to the Murray Sinclair memorial fund. You can make a donation to the fund which can be given to the family. That could really help the family. Justice Sinclair has really put us on a higher level, as Inuit, first nations and Métis. He has brought us up.

[English]

I hope he has safe journeys in the spirit world.

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout.

Next, I'll provide the floor to Mr. Lemire.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank all my colleagues for taking the initiative to say nice things about Justice Sinclair. I would like to add my voice and that of the Bloc Québécois to offer our condolences to his loved ones, his family and his community. This man leaves a very big legacy, particularly in the context of truth and reconciliation. We should always draw inspiration from it in the work we do as a committee.

I am particularly touched by the fact that men and women of Mr. Sinclair's generation who lived through the residential school era had the courage to speak out. They had the courage to talk about the trauma and suffering they experienced. They wanted to inspire change in our society that would lead to greater respect for indigenous communities. That change will lead to reconciliation based on truth.

That's the legacy handed down to me, to be able to name that truth every chance I get. As parliamentarians and legislators, we are able to make impactful decisions that are respectful of the harm members of indigenous communities have suffered and the courage they have shown.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you, Mr. Lemire.

Next, I'll hand the floor over to Mr. Battiste.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's a sombre day here in Ottawa as we reflect on a life well lived.

Murray Sinclair was an amazing person. He had tremendous influence all across Canada. I can think of no other person who advanced reconciliation over the past decade more than Senator Sinclair did.

Long before I was a member of Parliament, I was a treaty education lead in Nova Scotia. I would go around the Atlantic region speaking his words, quoting him, and speaking about his passion for the education system. One of the quotes that I always remembered in my presentations from Murray reads:

While Indigenous children were being mistreated in residential schools being told they were heathens, savages and pagans and inferior people – that same message was being delivered in the public schools of this country.

He said that to awaken Canadians, we needed an education system that spoke not only about the truth and record about the Indian residential schools but also about our true shared history in this country, all of it.

As a member of Parliament, I was able to co-chair with him the indigenous parliamentarians and senators group, where we had a belief that no matter what your political affiliation was, no matter where you were, and wherever you grew up, if you were indigenous, we could find common ground on things. I always remember that.

He'll be well remembered. I just want to say woliwon to him for his legacy, but also, to his family, meegwetch for sharing him with us. We're thinking about you in our prayers right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Battiste.

I'm going to turn the floor over to Mr. Melillo.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for affording us all this opportunity. I'll try my best to be brief as well.

I don't want to repeat anything that's been said, but obviously, Senator Murray Sinclair had an incredibly profound impact on all of us and on many Canadians across the country. He was instrumental in advancing reconciliation. His life, his career and his incredibly impressive résumé speak to it in every respect. From my own standpoint, as someone representing northwestern Ontario—42 first nations across three treaty territories—I know from the conversations I've had that he is more than an inspiration; he's really a hero to many people, to many first nations across the country. Obviously, he's going to be very missed. Because of the incredible work that he's done and the lives he has touched, I know he will not be forgotten.

Unfortunately, I did not have an opportunity to develop much of a relationship with Senator Sinclair, but anyone who knows me well also knows I have to fly to Winnipeg in order to get home, so I had the opportunity to sit with him on a few planes. I always appreciated the opportunity to seek his guidance, and he was never reluctant and never held anything back. He was always open to a discussion with anybody about any subject to advance reconciliation and to ensure that we were moving forward together. I appreciated his wisdom and my opportunity to lean on that in the few opportunities that I had. I only wish I were able to do so more often.

I want to thank him for his contributions to our country. As the previous speaker mentioned, I thank his family for sharing him with us. I offer my condolences to his friends, family and loved ones. Really, I would just like to ensure that, on behalf of everyone on our committee, the understanding of his inspiration will live on and his work will continue, hopefully, through us to the best of our abilities.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank very much, Mr. Melillo.

I do want to thank all members for sharing their thoughts at a very difficult time right now.

With that, we are going to move into clause-by-clause consideration.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, June 5, 2024, the committee is resuming consideration of Bill C-61, an act respecting water, source water, drinking water, wastewater and related infrastructure on first nation lands.

To help us with the clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-61, I would now like to welcome our witnesses. We have Nelson Barbosa, director general, community infrastructure branch, Department of Indigenous Services; Rebecca Blake, acting director, legislation, engagement and regulations, Department of Indigenous Services; and Douglas Fairbairn, senior counsel, Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs.

I want to remind members that the amendments are confidential and subamendments are to be shared electronically or on paper in both official languages and sent to the clerk for distribution.

I'd also like to provide members of the committee with a few comments on how the committee will proceed with the clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-61.

As the phrase indicates, this is an examination of all the clauses in the order in which they appear in the bill. I will call each clause successively, and each clause will be subject to debate and a vote. If there are amendments to the clause in question, I will recognize the member proposing it, who then may explain it.

In addition to having to be properly drafted in a legal sense, amendments must also be procedurally admissible. The chair may be called upon to rule amendments inadmissible if they go against the principle of the bill or beyond the scope of the bill, both of which were adopted by the House when it agreed to the bill at second reading, or if they offend the financial prerogative of the Crown.

Each amendment has been given a number in the top right corner to indicate which party submitted it. There is no need for a seconder to move an amendment. Once moved, you will need unanimous consent to withdraw it.

During debate on an amendment, members are permitted to move subamendments. Approval from the mover of the amendment is not required. Subamendments must be provided in writing. Only one subamendment may be considered at a time, and that subamendment cannot be amended. When a subamendment is moved to an amendment, it is voted on first, and then another subamendment may be moved, or the committee may consider the main amendment and vote on it.

Finally, if members have any questions regarding the procedural admissibility of amendments, the legislative clerks are here to assist the committee. However, they are not legal drafters. Should members require assistance with drafting a subamendment, they must contact the legislative counsel.

I thank members for their attention and wish everyone a productive clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-61.

With that, let's get into it.

(On clause 2)

I would like to propose something before we start with clause 2.

Since there are a few amendments to clause 2, which is the definitions clause, I suggest that we postpone the study of clause 2 until the end. This will allow us to first consider and then make a decision on amendments that could have an impact on the definitions. As a reminder, the definitions clause of a bill is not the place to propose a substantive amendment unless other amendments have been adopted that would warrant amendments to the definitions clause.

With that, I do want to ask the committee if there is unanimous consent that we defer this until the end of clause-by-clause consideration.

Okay. It seems that there is consent. Therefore, clause 2 will be postponed and will be considered after clause 44.

(Clause 2 allowed to stand)

(On clause 3)

I will provide the opportunity for someone to move NDP-6.

Ms. Idlout, go ahead.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

My apologies; I did not understand the process. I do want to eliminate some of the elements that I brought forward. Can I say the numbers, or should I be writing them down?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Ms. Idlout, you may say the different amendments that you don't want to move, or you may also just not move them. There's no requirement that you move those ones.

If it would be preferable for you to provide those up front, then it could speed up the process as well.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

I want to let you know that I will be removing these ones. I will now include the numbers: NDP-15, NDP-18, NDP-26 and also NDP-78.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout.

Just for clarification, it was NDP-15, NDP-18, NDP-26 and NDP-78.

Thank you very much.

With that, Ms. Idlout, you still have the floor for NDP-6.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

I will move NDP-6 with identifier 13377319.

I want to support the people of the Blackfoot Confederacy, who gave us this consideration. It's for the title of “First Nations peoples”, the name of the title, if that makes sense.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout.

Do we have any members who would like to speak to this amendment?

We'll go to Mr. Schmale and then Ms. Atwin.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

My question revolves around Bill S-13. I believe that piece of legislation is nearing potential completion in the House, whenever the House leaders do it. It's my understanding this gets repealed if Bill S-13 passes. Is that the non-derogation clause?

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I don't understand, Jamie. Are you saying that the non-derogation clause may lead to a different definition of first nations? I wasn't following.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

No, I just didn't know if it was redundant or not. I guess that was my overall question.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I don't think they're connected.