Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 7th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 130 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

As always, I want to start by acknowledging that we are gathered on the ancestral and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people and to express gratitude that we're able to do the important work of this committee on lands that they've stewarded since time immemorial.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, June 5, 2024, the committee resumes consideration of Bill C-61, an act respecting water, source water, drinking water, wastewater and related infrastructure on first nation lands.

We're going to pick up where we left off yesterday, but first, to help us with clause-by-clause consideration, I'd like to welcome our witnesses back again this morning.

We have Nelson Barbosa, director general, community infrastructure branch, Department of Indigenous Services; Rebecca Blake, acting director, legislation, engagement and regulations, Department of Indigenous Services; and Douglas Fairbairn, senior counsel, Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs.

I also want to remind members that amendments are confidential and that subamendments are to be shared electronically or on paper in both official languages and sent to the clerk for distribution.

With that, colleagues, let's jump right into it. When we left off last night, we were on the new NDP-22. I will open the floor up to Ms. Idlout, who had the floor when we were wrapping up yesterday evening.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Good morning.

First of all, I want to recognize that today is International Inuit Day. I am proud as an Inuit that we are recognized. I hope that you will be able to share this message. Our fellow Inuit are resilient and strong, surviving in the harsh Arctic. We come here today because of their strength, the strength of the Inuit.

Our language was being eradicated, so I am proud to be able to speak my language here in this committee. I'm also grateful to this committee for giving me the opportunity to speak Inuktitut. We have an interpreter provided, so I will begin.

NDP-22 was given to us by the Assembly of First Nations. I want to remind you who gave us the proposal for this amendment. I identify who gave us the proposal to remind you that when you vote the amendments down, you are voting down their proposals.

Only 31% the first nations were consulted when Bill C-61 was being developed. There were a whole bunch of first nations who were not included. First nations will be affected by this, so what they want to see protected will have an impact on this if it is to go ahead. Let's recognize where these proposals come from.

NDP-22 states that indigenous people have distinct cultures. If they do not come to an agreement, they can try to work it out together. They want this to be in your considerations regarding fresh water protection. It's to include their language and their culture. It follows that when there are amendments to be agreed on, first nations' laws should be considered.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout.

I'd also like to wish us a happy International Inuit Day. One thing that makes this committee very special is that we have live translation. I want to also recognize the great work of our interpreters here today, because I think it is a model for the hard work that we need to do to restore and revitalize indigenous languages right across the country.

With that, I have a speaking list going.

Ms. Atwin, I have you first up.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much.

Happy Inuit Day as well. I think that's amazing. I wasn't aware, so I'm grateful that you brought that to our attention.

It's also incredible to hear Inuktitut and have amazing interpreters to assist us in this committee.

Thank you so much, Lori.

I'm wondering if our expert witnesses could explain what the implications would be of just adding the amendment. It's quite prescriptive compared to what we had. I'm just worried about what that implication might be.

[Rebecca Blake, Acting Director, Legislation, Engagement and Regulations, Department of Indigenous Services]

In terms of your interpretation of it as being quite prescriptive, I would tend to agree. It would provide, by federal law, a way for first nations to work with first nations on any kind of competing interests among first nation laws. There could be different approaches when it was left up more to a first nation law for how they would work together within their individual laws as opposed to in federal law. That would be the one consideration.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

I also understand that the implication is that there would be the potential for protection zone agreements that would come after the bill comes into force. Does this supersede those? Would it complicate that process? How would it impact that?

[Rebecca Blake]

It may potentially complicate that process, but as you mentioned, there are existing provisions under agreements in the bill as it stands right now to allow for those agreements to take place. They would take into account individual cultural preferences of first nations and those individual first nation laws as well.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Ms. Atwin.

Are there any other colleagues who would like to make an intervention?

Go ahead, Mr. Melillo.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've always been confident in my ability to read, but I understand that there are two different texts and I haven't been able to discern exactly what the difference is.

Before I go any further, I just want to clarify if the text is the same in the new amendment or if I might be missing something. Is there a difference?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. Melillo, this would have been part of the package that was distributed on Monday.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I understand. I have both copies. I have the original NDP-22 and the new NDP-22, and that's what's caused my concern. I'm not sure exactly what the difference is, so I want to make sure there's nothing I'm missing before I go further.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Can we maybe have it read to us word for word?

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I have a copy.

Are you also not sure?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

We're comparing the new and the old, and they're exactly the same.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I could turn it over to Ms. Idlout, if she'd like to speak to any differences.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

I really don't know what the differences are. I think it's been revised by the staff. I'm sitting here with Sébastien. We reviewed this, and the new amendment and the old amendment look the same.

If this can be clarified, I would also appreciate it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thanks, Ms. Idlout.

Having reviewed it, there is no change in the English version. There are some small changes that need to be done in the French version, but they don't in any way change the meaning. It was to have proper translation.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Can I ask another question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Yes, Mr. Melillo.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I wanted to make sure that was clear before I move forward.

To pick up on Ms. Atwin's question about complications around protection zones potentially arising from this, I just want to be clear about where that complication would lie. Would it be in defining the protection zones or how first nation law would apply in protection zones? Is it maybe both?

Maybe you could expand on that a little bit more.

[Rebecca Blake]

It is uncertain where the complication would lie. It's really about what's in first nations laws and how those would work together.

First nations laws under section 6, which we looked at yesterday, would really be up to first nations themselves. Therefore, from a federal perspective, we wouldn't know exactly what was in that first nation's laws until we worked with them on the agreements to implement those laws, as well as publication of those laws. It's more about the unknown in the future.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you. I'm good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Melillo.

Ms. Idlout, go ahead.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Regarding clause 11, after reading Bill C-61 and reading the NDP-22 amendment, it is not included in the plan.

Will the protection plans be affected?