Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 9th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, President Sandmaier.

With that, we're going into our first round of questions, the six-minute round, starting with Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you so much for being here to testify today.

One of the problems I see with the government's approach to these issues is that they lean very hard into saying that it's very complex to figure out who is and is not indigenous, and that ends up being an excuse for not taking the problem of indigenous identity fraud seriously.

Earlier in this same meeting, we talked a bit about the Métis Nation of Alberta, and some of my Liberal colleagues got very animated when I pointed out that deciding who's a member of the Métis Nation of Alberta is not subjective and that you actually have very clear and objective criteria and ways of establishing who is and is not eligible.

Could you just clarify the point? Am I correct in believing that who is or is not eligible to be a citizen of the Métis Nation of Alberta is a matter that is clear, that is objective, that can be known and that can be the basis for definitive claims made one way or the other?

[Andrea Sandmaier]

Yes. As I said in my opening remarks, our registry system is.... It's a rigorous process to become a citizen within the Métis Nation of Alberta. Upon application, you do have to provide proof of historical ancestry, biological historical ancestry, in order to get a Métis Nation of Alberta citizenship card. We know that when our citizens have their card, they meet our criteria. It's a very strict and rigorous process.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Then entirely hypothetically, if someone from Alberta was going around saying that they were Métis, but they didn't have that card—maybe they hadn't gone through the process, or maybe they had tried and had been told, “Sorry, you're not eligible”—it would be a fairly straightforward matter for someone to say that if you don't have the appropriate certification, you're either not Métis or you haven't bothered to go through the process.

[Andrea Sandmaier]

Yes. The fact is that when an individual shows their citizenship card from the Otipemisiwak Métis Government, the public can be assured that they meet the criteria to become a Métis citizen within Alberta. Evidence-based citizenship is what our process is.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes, and I want to delve a little further into this, because a lot of the procurement abuse issues do flow from people making false claims of identity.

The government members continually come back to saying that this is complicated—that in general terms, it's complicated. How do you think we can wade through these claims of complexity to ensure programs that are designed to benefit indigenous peoples are not being taken advantage of by those who are making false claims of identity?

[Andrea Sandmaier]

I think that if the government were to apply a similar standard of verification to the indigenous procurement process, they would be able to ensure the opportunities that were meant for indigenous communities were awarded to indigenous communities.

We have within our government what's called “MétisWorks”. It is a database of Métis-owned businesses, and those businesses have been proven to be owned by Métis citizens. We have that available already.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Now, from what I understand, there's no mechanism for effective ongoing communication between your business list and the government's list. The government creates their own list separately from your process, so someone could be claiming to be a Métis business from Alberta but not be on your list and still be on the government's list, and someone could be on your list but still not be recognized by the government.

What are your reflections on that? Do you think it would be a fairly straightforward matter to have the government's lists incorporate by reference the lists that are used by various rights holders across the country?

[Andrea Sandmaier]

MétisWorks is available publicly.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Right—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Sorry; do I have five minutes or six?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

You have six minutes. I apologize.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

This is fairly pedantic, maybe, but I want to make sure that it's very clear to the members across from me that if the government simply took your publicly available list and incorporated that into their list, it would seem like a pretty obvious, easy and simple thing to do, and yet they don't do that. They have their own process.

[Andrea Sandmaier]

Yes, and, as I said before, I think that if the government were to apply the same standard as we do, we wouldn't have these issues.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I think that is my time, Chair.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I'm sorry for the mix-up there.

Next we're going to our second questioner in the first round. Mr. Battiste, you have six minutes.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, President Sandmaier. I'm happy that you didn't take up the member opposite's debate in trying to make it seem as if indigenous identity is a simple thing, especially Métis identity.

Andrea, does the Métis Nation of Alberta follow the Powley test set out by the Supreme Court of Canada in determining Métis identity?

[Andrea Sandmaier]

We do follow the national definition that the Métis National Council adopted, and so did our government. The Métis Nation of Alberta adopted the national definition many years ago.

Every registry by a Métis government is up to them. We don't have any say in anybody else's registry.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Would you say that there are differences among the different Métis organizations in terms of how they determine Métis identity?

[Andrea Sandmaier]

I would say that would be a question for other Métis governments.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Okay. It's not a simple or straightforward answer.

In my understanding of the Powley test, there are three important factors. The first is self-identification, which is a very personal thing. The next is ancestry, which, as you said, is determined biologically, and I'll come back to you on that. The third is community acceptance.

Am I correct in understanding the Powley test and the three factors?

[Andrea Sandmaier]

Yes.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Self-identity is basically someone saying, “I'm indigenous,” checking a box and being able to prove that somehow.

How does the community determine community acceptance? How do you show for the Powley test that you've accepted a person into your community?

[Andrea Sandmaier]

I am going to hand that part of the question off to Mr. Tomlinson.