Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 9th, 2024

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Well, what I would say is that our data demonstrates that we are actually hitting our procurement target in a number of different departments.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Your data also shows, Madam Minister, that you're dramatically purging the indigenous business list, that you have taken over 1,000 companies off that list since 2022. You've taken over 100 companies off this year alone.

I'm trying to square the fact that on the one hand, not a single person or company has been penalized for indigenous identity fraud, but that on the other hand, you're dramatically purging the list, which suggests that there are some people on that list who shouldn't be on that list.

How do you square the fact that indigenous leaders across the board are saying that abuse of this program is rampant? You're taking many companies off the list, yet nobody has been held accountable for indigenous identity fraud.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Well, actually, what I would say is that indigenous peoples are saying that economic reconciliation and the work of the Government of Canada in terms of its procurement target is actually changing realities for indigenous businesses across the country.

However, I would say that I agree with you, Mr.—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry, Minister, but could you just answer the question? Is it acceptable that nobody has been held accountable for indigenous identity fraud by your government?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

What I would say is that it's great that you care about this program to the degree that you do, because what we all agree about, Mr. Genuis—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Did you answer the question? Is it acceptable to you that nobody has been held accountable?

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I can't answer the question, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Go ahead on your point of order, Mr. Carr.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

It's just a problem we've run into previously. It's very difficult for us to have translation services provided adequately when there's talking back and forth, so perhaps we could just resettle things.

Thank you.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

On the same point of order, I agree with Mr. Carr. I'm trying to ask questions and the minister is not answering them and, I think, should be brought to order.

I have 30 seconds left, and I'd just like to know whether she thinks it's acceptable—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. Genuis, before you do that, I want to remind members here not to talk over the witnesses. We want to make sure that we're avoiding crosstalk. It makes it very difficult for the interpreters to do their work and for members who have challenges in hearing as well. I want to remind members to do that.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I was indeed hearing two voices at the same time, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

With that, Mr. Genuis, you have about 30 seconds.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

In those 30 seconds, I'll try one more time, Minister.

Nobody has been held accountable by your government for indigenous identity fraud. Meanwhile, you've taken the Canadian Health Care Agency off the list, and you can't tell me why. You've taken Dalian Enterprise off the list, and you can't tell me why. You've taken over 1,000 companies off the list, yet nobody has been held accountable for it. Is it acceptable to you that not a single company has ever been held accountable for indigenous identity fraud by your government?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

It appears to me that I have answered your question, and I have answered your question repeatedly.

However, I will tell you that removals from the list are for many reasons that can be quite benign. For example, businesses could be closed. They could be non-responsive to requests from the department—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Are 1,000 businesses suddenly non-responsive?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

There could be changes in the business ownership structure. There could be a number of different reasons. What I would say is that—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Could you provide a breakdown of those reasons for each of those companies?

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Go ahead, Mr. Carr.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Again, it's extremely difficult to follow the discussion in both official languages. There are francophone members and others listening to the discussion in both official languages. I hope our colleagues can do a better job of following the rules, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you, Mr. Carr.

Mr. Genuis's time is up.

I want to give the witness an opportunity to finish her answer. Then we'll move on to the next questioner.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

It's affirming that the Conservative Party agrees that the 5% target is so important that we must ensure that the way we do this affirms indigenous identity. However, it is also clear that the Conservative Party has no idea what to do about this problem. We do, and we're going to take control.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Genuis.

Next we will move to Ms. Gainey for five minutes. The floor is yours.