Evidence of meeting #136 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was procurement.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Keith Conn  Assistant Deputy Minister, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indigenous Services
Jessica Sultan  Director General, Economic Policy Development, Department of Indigenous Services
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Malachie Azémar
Valerie Gideon  Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
Andrea Sandmaier  President, Otipemisiwak Métis Government
Garrett Tomlinson  Senior Director, Self Government, Métis Nation of Alberta
Nancy Vohl  Procedural Clerk

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 136 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

As always, I want to start by acknowledging that we are gathered on the ancestral and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people, and by expressing gratitude that we're able to do the important work of this committee on lands that they've stewarded since time immemorial.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, February 1, 2022, and the order of reference of Tuesday, November 19, 2024, the committee is resuming its study of the barriers to indigenous economic development.

I want to welcome our witnesses for the first panel. We have the Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos, Minister of Public Services and Procurement, and the Honourable Patty Hajdu, Minister of Indigenous Services.

They are joined by officials from the Department of Indigenous Services, including Gina Wilson, deputy minister; Keith Conn, assistant deputy minister; and from lands and economic development, Jessica Sultan, director general, economic policy development.

From the Department of Public Works and Government Services, we have Arianne Reza, the deputy minister, and Catherine Poulin, assistant deputy minister, departmental oversight branch.

Ministers, welcome. You will each have 10 minutes for your opening statements, after which we will proceed to the rounds of questions.

We start with Minister Duclos.

4:05 p.m.

Québec Québec

Liberal

Jean-Yves Duclos LiberalMinister of Public Services and Procurement

I thought you would start with the best one and then have me, the other one, after that, but that is your choice, Chair. You are the decision-maker.

I'll start by thanking you for inviting Minister Hajdu and me to discuss the important issue of indigenous procurement.

I would like to begin by acknowledging that the land on which we are meeting is the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

With me today are two senior officials from Public Services and Procurement Canada, or PSPC: Deputy Minister Arianne Reza, and Assistant Deputy Minister Catherine Poulin of the Corporate Oversight Branch.

The Government of Canada obviously recognizes the negative and ongoing impact of colonization on the self-determination and independence, economic and otherwise, of indigenous peoples.

My department, PSPC, participates in the reconciliation effort with indigenous peoples and helps indigenous companies and entrepreneurs be fully involved in the Government of Canada's procurement process.

For many years now, the procurement strategy for indigenous business program has been an important tool used by the government to promote reconciliation and economic independence.

Here are some of our tangible results.

The first is PSPC's work with indigenous peoples to include indigenous themes, arts and materials into parliamentary precinct projects, such as the Centre Block, the new Parliament Welcome Centre and the redevelopment of Block 2 of the parliamentary precinct.

The future aircrew training program, which is a $1.7-billion initiative to modernize pilot and aircrew training for the Royal Canadian Air Force, includes a clear commitment to dedicate at least 5% of the contract value to creating professional and skilled employment opportunities for indigenous workers, from apprenticeships to executive roles.

The new Canadian dental care plan, with a three-year partnership between Sun Life and the Tribal Wi-Chi-Way-Win Capital Corporation, will create more than 175 jobs in Winnipeg. To achieve this, the government relies on the indigenous business directory to administer the strategy, and I know that Indigenous Services Canada is working very well and very strongly with its partners and exploring new ways to improve the registration and validation processes.

In the last year the government has taken firm action to protect the integrity of that important federal procurement system from the effects of bad actors. The process of addressing fraudulent cases must be free of any political interference. That is why, at PSPC, we created the Office of Supplier Integrity and Compliance, or OSIC: to enhance the department’s capacity to respond to instances of supplier wrongdoing.

OSIC is acting independently from political interference and has already ruled against cases in which there were concerns of wrongdoing.

We also introduced the new ineligibility and suspension policy to provide OSIC with a range of actions on the much broader scope of misconduct. For example, suppliers who violate the integrity of the procurement process can be suspended and debarred, even without a criminal charge or conviction.

Mr. Chair, the process by which concerns are assessed by OSIC can happen in two ways. First, departments and agencies can come forward with concerns about wrongdoing; second, OSIC can also initiate an assessment itself, based on information provided by a trusted source.

In either case, Mr. Chair, it is critical that PSPC be made aware of wrongdoing as soon as possible so that steps can be taken to rectify the situation. I can tell you that officials at my department are actively engaged with other federal organizations to ensure that instances of supplier misconduct are promptly referred to OSIC.

In closing, Mr. Chair, PSPC will continue to use the government’s buying power to help advance economic reconciliation. Canada’s prosperity cannot afford to exclude the diverse range of skills and experience that indigenous businesses and people contribute. To realize this potential, we must also safeguard the integrity of Canada’s federal procurement system and ensure value for money.

Thank you. I will eventually be very happy to answer the committee’s questions.

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Thank you very much, Minister Duclos.

With that, we'll move on to our next witness, the Honourable Patty Hajdu.

You have 10 minutes or less for your opening remarks.

4:10 p.m.

Thunder Bay—Superior North Ontario

Liberal

Patty Hajdu LiberalMinister of Indigenous Services

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My colleague has left off at a great place, because my role here today is to highlight the importance of fostering strong indigenous economic opportunities through programs like the PSIB, the procurement strategy for indigenous business.

For decades, indigenous peoples were intentionally excluded from opportunities to develop local economies and participate more broadly in the national economy. The short-sighted policies of previous governments meant that, whether intentional or as a consequence of exclusionary policy, indigenous businesses and economies have been held back. However, that is short-sighted for indigenous peoples and communities and for Canada's economy alike. Supporting indigenous entrepreneurs, who are job creators, or making access to capital available for major projects is good for people, communities and Canada's overall economy.

Investing in indigenous communities and building up indigenous businesses and entrepreneurs benefit all Canadians. According to the 2022 “National Indigenous Economic Strategy for Canada”, the continued exclusion of indigenous peoples costs the Canadian economy $27.7 billion every year. The National Indigenous Economic Development Board found that closing the existing employment gap could help lift over 150,000 indigenous people out of poverty. There is a real cost to inaction.

Indigenous people are an untapped resource in Canada's market. Since 2015, we've been focused on strengthening self-determination and building capacity so that indigenous peoples have the tools and resources to fully participate in the economy on their own terms. Federal funding for programs like the aboriginal entrepreneurship program managed by the National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association and Métis capital corporations is creating opportunities for first nations, Inuit and Métis business owners to launch or grow their businesses.

Indigenous financial institutions have existed since the late 1980s. Over the past 35 years, the program has issued approximately 52,000 business loans worth $3.2 billion, with a repayment rate of over 95%. For every $1 million lent by indigenous financial institutions, $3.6 million is produced in total gross domestic product, GDP, for Canada. Successive governments have recognized that access to capital is key to economic reconciliation, and the results of these investments can be seen in communities across the country.

For example, Ulnooweg Development Group Inc., the indigenous financial institution for the Atlantic, has played a key role in supporting indigenous entrepreneurs. To date, it's funded over 1,900 projects worth over $71 million. This funding has supported entrepreneurs in the fishing, aquaculture and marine servicing industries, creating a strong first nations-led industry in the region and boosting the local economy.

Investing in indigenous communities and building up indigenous businesses and entrepreneurs benefit all regions in our country. It's why budget 2024 announced $319.8 million over five years to provide much-needed additional capital for indigenous financial institutions and Métis capital corporations to support the growing needs of entrepreneurs.

While investing in indigenous business is important, it starts with a strong base. Building up communities with new or renovated schools, health care centres, water treatment plants, all-season roads and housing is investing in Canada's productivity and economy overall. A recent report from the AFN found that every dollar invested in infrastructure generates $1.82 in economic output for first nations communities. Since 2015, we've increased funding for education, health, infrastructure and housing by over 1,100%.

We're working with partners on community-led solutions, and we're making progress. For example, to close the housing gap, we've supported 5,300 housing projects in 611 first nations communities since April 2016. More kindergarten to grade 12 schools are being built so that children can access high-quality education without leaving home, including in communities like Tataskweyak Cree Nation in northern Manitoba, Eabametoong First Nation in northern Ontario and Piikani Nation in Alberta.

Strong communities produce strong community members, who in turn are the leaders who will shape the decades to come.

Procurement is another key part of building the indigenous economy. The national indigenous economic strategy, which was developed by over 20 indigenous organizations, sees procurement as a key component of accessing financial capital so that indigenous peoples can achieve economic and social prosperity on their own terms.

The strategy also recommends that all levels of government and industry have mandatory indigenous procurement targets. In 2021, the federal government implemented a 5% indigenous procurement target set for all departments. Tabatha Bull—some of you have heard from her—the CEO of the Canadian Council for Indigenous Business, called it “a pivotal moment in harnessing the potential of the Indigenous economy”.

Since then, the value of contracts going to indigenous businesses has increased to approximately $1.6 billion, and there are tangible economic benefits to companies that for the first time have the Government of Canada as their customer. From experience to system navigation to growth of opportunity, government procurement could be a valuable component in the sales trajectory of an indigenous company.

Now that we're seeing success in bringing indigenous companies into the sphere of government procurement, the federal government is working with partners to transform the procurement strategy. It's clear that this program must be transformed and transferred to the control of partners. To do so respects the principle of self-determination, and it responds to the calls from indigenous leaders themselves.

Central to advancing self-determination and economic reconciliation is ensuring that indigenous peoples participate in and shape the decisions that deeply affect them. It's why I convened with the private sector, indigenous leadership and other government departments two economic reconciliation roundtables to date—and others are planned for 2025—to identify and create solutions to government and corporate barriers to indigenous economic activity. We're using that information as we work with partners on a renewed federal economic policy to support first nations, Inuit and Métis economic development.

I can see by the focus of the members in this committee that we agree that the federal government has a real opportunity and a role to foster indigenous economic prosperity, including by safeguarding the 5% minimum target and the procurement strategy for indigenous businesses. Programs that increase economic activity across Canada are just common sense.

The continued exclusion of indigenous people from the economy costs the Canadian economy, as I said before, $27.7 billion every year, so we can't afford to ignore opportunities to build up this economy. By working together to remove barriers to economic development and to support indigenous businesses, we are making progress towards long-term well-being and prosperity in communities across Canada.

I look forward to answering your questions and further discussing the importance of economic reconciliation.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Thank you very much, Minister.

That concludes the opening remarks.

We'll move into our first round of questions, the six-minute round, starting with the Conservative Party and Mr. Barrett.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Minister Hajdu, a former auditor for the indigenous procurement program has stated that your Liberal government was warned about specific cases of alleged fraud.

He said that the government hamstrung auditors and repeatedly ignored warnings that the program was being abused by non-indigenous companies.

Why did you ignore the auditor's warnings?

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

Well, first of all, I was deeply concerned this weekend to hear of this. It was the first I'd heard of this allegation. I took immediate action with the department, and I am calling for a full external audit of the program.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

A full external audit.... In the case that's been outlined in the remarks of the former auditor, we see that having the government check its own work is not actually oversight. Are you able to tell us at whose direction Indigenous Services Canada determined that the department would take on full responsibility for confirming the eligibility of indigenous businesses for the program after 2021?

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

Well, first of all, I just want to thank you for the question. It's clear by your question that we agree that a 5% procurement target is important and that we need to ensure any program like this has integrity, so I appreciate the question. I agree with you that if we don't have integrity of this program, we're not going to be able to satisfy not just Canadians but indigenous people that a program like this is actually working toward their goals.

What I can say is that the company that was contracted by Indigenous Services Canada to do this work has made these allegations. They're very serious. As I said, I'm extremely concerned. I found out about these concerns this weekend and took immediate action to call for an external audit. The department is working now on what that will look like and will come back to me with a plan.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Minister, is it your belief today that the program has integrity?

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

It is my belief that there are many aspects of the program that are delivering for indigenous companies, but any misuse of the program puts the program at risk. For me, an allegation like the one that the auditor has made is very serious. I think we should all take it seriously and we should act on it.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Minister Duclos, were you aware of Randy Boissonnault's claims of indigenous heritage that were echoed and promoted by the Liberal Party of Canada, both in their social media and in fundraising efforts? Were you aware that he had made those claims?

Jean-Yves Duclos Liberal Québec, QC

Like you, I follow the news and listen to what our colleagues say. Actually, I may not do that as much as you, because you were at the committee together last week, and you heard Randy Boissonnaultcomment on these issues.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

The Liberal Party fundraised off a false claim. It was a lie that had been put forward. Now, if the lie was not.... Mr. Boissonnault claims it wasn't he who told the lie, in which case it would rest with the Liberal Party. They fundraised off it, and we've seen multiple instances now of the Liberal Party trying to cover this up. Media have continued to report more and more revelations that what Mr. Boissonnault says and what is true are often very different things.

Do you think Canadians should be concerned that the Liberal Party of Canada fundraised off what we now know to be a lie, which was that Mr. Boissonnault claimed to have indigenous heritage, and then his company used that same false claim in an attempt to disenfranchise indigenous-owned businesses and win contracts under that false pretense?

Ben Carr Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Mr. Carr has a point of order.

Ben Carr Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Perhaps the record can show that I think we established quite clearly at the last meeting, when Mr. Boissonnault was present, that he did not claim indigenous—

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

That's not a point of order.

Ben Carr Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

—heritage, nor did he at any point. Perhaps my colleagues across the way, when making such insinuations, can be mindful of what the facts show.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

On that point of order, Chair—

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Thank you, Mr. Carr.

On the point of order, I have Mr. Barrett.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Yes. As you well know, Mr. Carr's intervention is not a point of order. It does not reference any standing order. It's simply debate, in an attempt to interrupt the proceedings.

I was very respectful in my exchange in offering time to the ministers. What I'd ask is that Liberal members be equally respectful, even if they're trying to cover for shameful behaviour by the Liberal member for Edmonton, Randy Boissonnault, on his lies and false claims.

Ben Carr Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, the same point of order—

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

We're quickly getting into debate here, Mr. Carr, but do you have a point of order that you're—

Ben Carr Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Just very quickly on the same point of order, I believe Mr. Barrett began referencing shameful behaviour and other allegations—