Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 9th, 2024

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Could you reset the clock for me, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Yes, you can start over.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Indigenous business leaders must have real and direct access to federal government procurement opportunities as equal partners, not as marginalized bystanders. Obviously, I'm talking about genuine indigenous businesses.

The priority must be to build capacity, streamline contracting processes and ensure an economic governance framework that puts them at the centre of the decision-making process, not at the periphery. If we want economic reconciliation to be more than just lip service, we must act now.

Currently, we get the impression that the Canadian Council for Indigenous Business, the CCIB, is overstepping its initial mandate by acting as a direct competitor to the five indigenous institutions mandated by the Assembly of First Nations, the AFN. I'm referring to the National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association, the NACCA; the First Nations Finance Authority, the FNFA; the First Nations Financial Management Board, the FMB; the Council for the Advancement of Native Development Officers, CANDO; and AFOA Canada,the centre of excellence and innovation in indigenous management, finance and governance.

What's most concerning is that the Canadian Council for Indigenous Business is trying to take control of the indigenous business directory, a role that should rightfully belong to organizations led by and for first nations, Métis and Inuit.

This behaviour further undermines indigenous institutions and diverts resources that should rightfully be theirs. That's what this study is about.

Minister, when will you act to uphold the motion passed by the Assembly of First Nations and ensure the full economic independence of legitimate indigenous institutions led by and for rights holders?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

That's a good question.

That's the problem with reforming the program. There is no consensus on how to approach that.

We continue to engage with our partners. Our approach has to ensure that every organization has a voice. For example, the organizations that represent Inuit, Métis and first nations, respectively, are all different. There should be a different approach for each partner. We need to find a fair and equitable ways forward that our partners will approve of.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

In this case, it's about much more than having a voice; it's about leadership.

I'm wondering why the CCIB is part of the conversation. Why are we hearing that this organization is going to get $5 million instead of companies recognized by the Assembly of First Nations?

Is the CCIB an indigenous organization led and mandated by first nations rights holders?

Who funds the CCIB? From what I hear, its funding comes directly from the big Bay Street firms—basically, white people whose business interests differ significantly from those of the first nations.

Who, if not you, can assure us that the CCIB's goals are entirely in the interest of first nations?

Is the CCIB an indigenous organization?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I don't agree with that perspective. The CCIB brings together indigenous, Métis and other members. The NACCA includes members of first nations and Métis societies.

I think there's a place for all of these organizations, and they have the opportunity and the responsibility to make this work a success.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

You've said many times that there was going to be a memorandum to cabinet about requests from the NACCA, the FNFA and the FMB. That means the next budget will include measures to fund their requests.

We've heard that the requests you've received from these organizations are supported and documented, as you well know. However, in recent weeks, some organizations have had meetings with your office. Others attended the Liberal cocktail party with the Prime Minister. There were also discussions about this at the most recent meeting of the Assembly of First Nations. I actually attended the presentation you made at that event.

Now that it's pretty much mid-December, can we get a meaningful guarantee that Minister Freelandhas officially been asked to guarantee funding for indigenous funding initiatives?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

My job was to write a letter to Minister Freeland about the budget exressing the—

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

It's mid-December. Was that letter written and sent to Minister Freeland?

When our topic is economic reconciliation, we expect your office to submit a brief.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

My department and I worked on the budget letter. I can't say much about the specifics of that letter or what it contains. However, I can assure you that part of the letter is about the economic reconciliation objective.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lemire.

Next, we're going to go to Ms. Idlout for six minutes.

The floor is yours.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik, Iksivautaq.

Unfortunately, you get to hear directly from me, as the interpreter who is normally provided for me is not here. I think that the committee is working on ensuring that we have more resources other than one interpreter so that my language rights could be respected and so that I could ask my questions in Inuktitut, but I will proceed in English anyway.

I have questions similar to Sébastien's. He asked about the Canadian Council for Indigenous Business because I think we all have been led to this point by the vagueness of what we hear about who indigenous organization members are. I think, though, that we're all very clear that we know who indigenous rights holders are.

My question is for you, Patty. Do you believe that the CCIB qualifies as an indigenous organization led by rights holders, similar to the First Nations Financial Management Board, NACCA and the First Nations Finance Authority?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm really uncomfortable being in the position of determining whether an indigenous organization is a legitimate indigenous organization.

I can tell you that we have respect for the work that CCIB does and that many of the organizations it represents are indeed indigenous businesses. I can tell you that it's also a partner in helping the Government of Canada figure out the next steps to transform the approach to identifying and certifying indigenous businesses. I can also tell you that the sooner the Government of Canada gets out of the business of defining what an indigenous business is, the better.

However, it won't stop the questions. I think what indigenous people are saying is that they need to be able themselves to define who their people are, who their members are. This is a vestige and a continuation of a colonial country that has a number of different programs and approaches that are in the position of having to certify indigeneity. CCIB is one of the partners—not the only partner—that is working on the question of how best to transfer this role, and I think it is a very important role.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik. If I could just simplify my question, do you think that CCIB qualifies as an indigenous organization?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think that it is an organization that has been providing an immense amount of service to many first nations and to other indigenous business providers, and I think that it has an important voice in the work that we're doing, but it's not the only voice.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Okay. You're clearly not going to answer my direct question, so I'm going to ask a different question.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Mr. Chair, I think I did answer the question, so I'm not sure. Maybe I misunderstood your question.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Okay. If you could answer yes or no, does CCIB qualify as an indigenous organization?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

It is an indigenous organization that provides a service, along with others.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you. You've answered my question.

I have another question, and I'm glad to see that Assistant Deputy Minister Keith Conn is here.

Since the Prime Minister highlighted in budget 2023 the need for economic reconciliation—terminology that I don't agree with, by the way—the indigenous economic council has been in collaboration with Indigenous Services Canada on recommendations to achieve this goal.

When do you anticipate these recommendations being brought to cabinet for discussion and decision?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

You can answer, but....

Go ahead.

[Keith Conn, Assistant Deputy Minister, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indigenous Services]

Thanks for the question.

We're looking at some cabinet dates. We just haven't landed on a date yet, but certainly it's in our line of sight.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

This was based on budget 2023 proposals. Could you explain to us why there has been a delay?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

The questions around cabinet process and dates seem to me to fall under cabinet confidence, but I can tell you that we're working with partners, and we want to make sure that what we bring to cabinet is going to truly reflect the needs that indigenous partners are saying must be included in a renewed economic reconciliation strategy.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you.

My next question is for Minister Duclos.

As you are the Minister of Public Services and Procurement, I'm wondering about how you work with Indigenous Services Canada on indigenous procurement. How do you operate to make sure that indigenous procurement meets the minimum 5% that we all know is the target?