Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 9th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Go ahead on a point of order, Mr. Carr.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Can you provide some direction to the committee, please, on the relevance and the connection between a former member of Parliament, their membership within the Liberal caucus and the motion that we were sent here to discuss as it pertains to indigenous procurement?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Can I answer that question?

It's about barriers to economic development in indigenous communities. I'm speaking to this because Randy Boissonnault co-owned a company that claimed indigenous status when in fact it was not indigenous. That, to me, is a barrier to economic development.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Not the membership in caucus....

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Let's talk about it.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Stay on track.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Very quickly, ask a final question. Your time is just about up.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

That was my question: Why?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

That's a question that you'd have to refer to MP Boissonnault, and I think he was here last week for two hours to answer many of your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Schmale.

We're moving on to the second questioner in the first round.

Mr. Battiste, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to start by asking the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations some questions.

Minister, you've done a very good job of reaching out to indigenous communities, meeting with them—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. Battiste, I'm going to have to stop you there. For some reason, the microphone is very quiet. Maybe if you could just keep speaking, I'll see if it's a little bit louder.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I can speak much louder if it helps you, but I'd rather just talk in a normal voice so it doesn't seem like I'm shouting at my minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I'm sorry, Mr. Batiste; we're going to have to pause very briefly. For some reason, the sound level in the room is quite low, and we'll just pause very briefly. We'll suspend very briefly until we can resolve this.

Now we're going to start back up here.

Mr. Battiste, we're going to start over. You have six minutes, please.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you very much.

My question is for Minister Anandasangaree. He's done a very good job in talking to indigenous communities across Canada about some of the barriers that they feel have kept their communities from doing as well as others.

You have the ability to talk to chiefs about the policies that were created by Canada that have kept them from succeeding. You've talked to communities who've had long-standing aboriginal and treaty rights claims that haven't been honoured. You've attempted to right these wrongs. You've had many communities talk to you about systemic problems within the justice system and about other things, like clean water, that prevent communities from doing well economically.

How often, Minister, do you have indigenous communities come to you and say, “We really don't know who we are, and we think that we need your government to study who we are and determine for us who should and shouldn't be given eligibility for projects”?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Jaime, for that question.

Let me just say that probably one of the overwhelming issues I get when I speak to leadership...and I would say that last week was a great example. I spoke to a number of caucuses, including the AFN Manitoba caucus, as well as Nova Scotia. Overwhelmingly, one of the issues that come up is the issue of why the federal government is still in the business of defining identity, particularly with respect to first nations.

As you know, the Indian Act is a deeply troubling piece of legislation that does define identity, and we know that over time it has had very negative impacts, particularly for women who have gone outside of their communities. I think retaining status for their grandchildren now, or the second-generation cut-off, is an issue of deep concern for many.

I would say that the commitment I've made is that this conversation will continue to happen. Modern-day treaties are an area where we really do want to ensure that the Indian Act.... My preference would be that the Indian Act wouldn't exist, but in the interim, it's to work towards ensuring issues around citizenship and membership are left to the nations. I believe that we have some very constructive conversations taking place, especially in Ontario and other places where we have advanced the issues of membership, but we are still far off.

Jaime, I would suggest that issues around identity are probably the most frustrating issues that I get. I'm sure you've heard it as well.

Issues around procurement are not something that I often get, but it comes in the context of why the distribution of contracts isn't sufficient or ample for indigenous people. I often worry, as I outlined in my statement, about the representation of indigenous people in all aspects of our lives.

One of the conversations I'm having with the Clerk of Parliament is on the suggestion that I do not believe that we have many indigenous voices represented within the Clerk's office, whether it be analysts, whether it be clerks or even whether it be pages. Those are conversations that I think are very much leading towards ensuring that there is greater representation. There are obviously a great number of barriers that exist, including issues around language and issues around the way we assess applications, but I do believe that I have a responsibility particularly to ensure that the representation is wholesome and is one that is increasing.

I know that many of the professional schools, for example, are very much charged with it, but we, as a government, I think—and the whole of government, not just our department—need to do more to ensure that a greater number of voices are at the table.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Minister, based on the conversations that you had last week with the chiefs, and based on your conversations that you've had over the last six months, do you think this study around indigenous procurement or going after Mr. Boissonnault are things that the chiefs are interested in, or do you think they would rather have us focus on key things like justice, indigenous policing, systemic racism and ensuring that we get water legislation passed in the House of Commons that would benefit all first nations communities across Canada?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Well, I would love for this community to study Bill C-77, which is on the commissioner for modern treaty implementation.

I also think there is a valid reason to study the notion of economic development in indigenous communities in the context of their realities and not just focus on one individual who has made a mistake and who's acknowledged the mistake.

I believe that this is a very constructive committee. I've been on it for many years. I do believe that this report will maybe shed light on what more we need to do as a government to ensure there is greater representation in economic development among indigenous communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much for that.

I'm sorry, Mr. Battiste, but I'm going to have to cut you off there. You're over time.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for joining us.

You and your colleagues play an important role in determining what is indigenous and what is not. Procrastination on the identity file is causing a lot of grief to the legitimate members of first nations. I'll explain myself on this subject, but first I'd like you to clarify something.

Will your goal of scrapping Bill C‑53 come to fruition? In other words, will you ensure that this bill doesn't move forward in Parliament?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Lemire.

Bill C-53 is a piece of legislation this committee studied. I want to thank the committee for the work it did. I know it wasn't an easy conversation. There were many dynamics there.

At this point in the journey of Bill C-53, I would reluctantly say that it may be hard for this bill to continue in its current form. As you know, there was a court decision relating to the Métis Nation of Alberta. There was also a decision by the Métis Nation-Saskatchewan to pull out of that process. Consequently, I'm respecting those two separate but related conclusions. As a result, Bill C-53 will not be moving forward.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I would add that the Assembly of First Nations, AFN, reminded us at its convention last week that Bill C‑53 should indeed be withdrawn. A number of indigenous communities who are members of the AFN had made this request, as well as the Assembly of First Nations Quebec-Labrador and the Chiefs of Ontario, among others. The same request was also made by the Métis community living on the Métis homeland, Red River, which you recently visited.

There is still a lot of tension and disagreement surrounding Bill C‑53 in its current form. As you know, the Métis National Council is holding back information on a major report concerning the Métis Nation of Ontario. Also, the Métis Nation of Alberta file is on your desk. That just doesn't fly with first nations, the Métis and Inuit. I remind you that the Métis Nation-Saskatchewan left the organization in the spring of 2024, as did the Manitoba Métis Federation in 2021.

Can you tell us what is wrong with that organization? What about issues of adherence or non-compliance with regulations? First nations are a bit fed up with the cultural appropriation made by the ancestors of the Métis Nation of Ontario.

I'd like you to tell us if steps will be taken to clarify the role of the Métis National Council.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

The Métis National Council has been in existence for many years. It is considered to be one of the national indigenous organizations in Canada, including the ITK and the Assembly of First Nations. As a result, it played a central role in a number of major discussions, and it continues to play a central role.

I am concerned about the issues around membership, but I don't want to comment publicly on internal matters of the Métis National Council without having a wholesome conversation. I don't think it's fair.

The issues around representation really rest with indigenous people. In this particular case, it's the Métis and their constituent members. However, from a national perspective, I look forward to conversations that we will have to see how it could be strengthened or what other alternatives may exist.

It's fair to say that I am quite concerned. I do look forward to speaking with the new president at the earliest juncture.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Do you consider the Métis National Council to be an indigenous organization?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Yes.