Evidence of meeting #137 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was businesses.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
President and Chief Executive Officer, BC Métis Federation
Mr. Schmale, it's a really big challenge for us, because we bear the brunt of it as organizations. It doesn't matter where you come from, whether as communities or from our membership base; we have our own internal differences of opinion on some of these things. I find it a bit, I guess, priceless that when stuff like this hits the news, the media come to us as if we've done something inappropriate and the communities are responsible for this mess. Nothing could be further from the truth.
When we talk about the registration of Métis people in this country, it's been a sloppy, disappointing process. I've been around the Métis organization since I graduated from university in 1995, and this challenge of our Métis identity is particularly symbolic of what we see. Membership systems are underfunded and governance is underfunded, and then when the media come out and these issues happen—things like this—everyone starts to run for cover and point fingers.
I am very concerned about the public conversation, because this creates lateral violence amongst us. It creates division among first nations and Métis organizations—and Inuit, for that matter. All of a sudden, this narrative is created that somehow there's no authenticity to organizations in the systems we're trying to put in place to actually prevent these very issues from happening.
I think the department has to take a really serious look at whether they are taking responsibility. Is it their responsibility? The question of who owns this issue is really important, and if it is government that wants to create legislation and law, then it must create the tools to make sure we can manage the processes effectively. It's not going to come from the academic world. It's not going to come from other partners in the space. It's going to come from the organizations and communities across this country.
I just feel that it needs to be taken very seriously and that we have to address this in a very real way so that we can make sure we can prevent these scenarios from further happening.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Henry.
I do have to jump into something really quickly. I need to address a motion that I have on notice for this committee, which I have saved for the end. Hopefully, we can dispense with it extremely quickly and get to the other rounds of questioners. I know there is a potential subamendment, so if I could, Chair, I'll read this into the record, and we can hopefully have a quick vote and get back to the witnesses and the matter at hand.
It's the notice of motion that was submitted on Wednesday, December 11. This comes out of an issue that we're all aware of. It's just to highlight the fact that the two business owners have yet to appear at committee. We recognize that the emails and phone calls have not been returned or answered or are bouncing back, but at the same time, it was a House order, so I think we should be using the tools at our disposal as parliamentarians, through the Sergeant-at-Arms or whatever, to ensure that we do, in fact, get those business partners.
I move:
That the Committee summon Felix Papineau and Shawna Parker to testify before this committee on December 16, 2024, provided that the chair and clerk be directed to retain, if necessary, the services of a skip tracer to assist with the service of the summonses.
Thank you very much, Chair.
Again, hopefully we can have a quick vote on this.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you, Mr. Schmale.
The motion has been moved, but before we get into it, I saw some hands up for debate on this issue. I want to turn it over to the clerk to speak to that a little bit further before we get into debate, because there are some practical challenges with being able to carry this out.
Madeleine Martin Legislative Clerk
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm just going to outline that Standing Order 120 does empower committees to hire “expert, professional, technical and clerical staff” on contract from outside the parliamentary precinct as required. However, page 1,054 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice also mentions that if a committee wishes to proceed with hiring from outside, they must first determine a few things.
The first one is “the nature and scope of the work to be performed.”
They must then “adopt a motion specifying the terms of reference and duration of the contract, [as well as] the maximum rate or amount of remuneration of the additional staff”, which could be a separate motion, and the budget would have to be adopted by the committee.
Lastly, they are required to obtain the necessary approval and funding for the contracts from the appropriate authorities, which are the liaison committee and, depending on the amount, the Board of Internal Economy.
With this said, it's possible for the committee to retain the services of an external provider. However, there are mandatory steps in the process that could perhaps make it difficult to accomplish by December 16.
It's up to the committee to decide how they wish to proceed.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Madam Clerk.
I saw that Mr. Battiste wanted to speak to this, so I'll hand the floor over to him.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
I don't think we're opposed to this.
It appears from what the clerk said that we want to give a realistic timeline and that there are some questions that need to be answered. I think that's a discussion that we should definitely have, but I don't think that December 16 is a realistic target.
I know that we've worked hard at the INAN committee over the last month, with additional hours. I think that in order to be fair to our staff, to our team here, the folks who are doing all of the good work that goes on behind the scenes, we should give them a bit more time on this.
I would ask if the Conservatives are willing to give the team here more time as you put more meat on the bones of your motion in terms of how much this will cost. The Conservatives are willing to spend good taxpayer money for this. With that, I'm just asking to ensure that for the amendment, we have more time as we flesh out the details that the clerk has provided.
Liberal
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Thank you very much.
To Mr. Battiste, through you, Chair, we are flexible on the date. We do recognize that it is pretty soon. It's in a couple days, and the team before us on the committee would have to put that together to make it work, and we understand the complexities on that.
To the clerk or the analysts, is there a template already in place that we can use to get an idea of the scope of the work that would be necessary in leading to the potential hiring of someone who can carry out the duties and what a potential budget might look like?
Then we can potentially answer Mr. Battiste's concerns. I think members of this committee have the same concerns and want these two business partners to attend, as per the House order. It's just a matter of putting the resources behind them. That is acceptable, and I'm flexible on that as long as we achieve that goal.
Maybe the analysts here have something to add.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
I think that we have maybe unanimous consent that this should go forward, but we need to get some information to the clerk on how this moves forward for us to have all of the information that the clerk needs.
What's your time frame, Jamie, that you're proposing in terms of how we get that? It's so that we have a vote with everything in front of us that we need in terms of knowledge, or can we adjourn debate with the understanding that you're going to come back to us with the information and a template filled out for this?
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
I don't want to leave it too long. I don't want time to go by so long that it just disappears. At the same time, I do have some ideas, but I'm very curious if the clerks and the analysts have some feedback to answer those questions that you have, Jaime. Then we can maybe lock this down.
Again, Chair, I don't know if the witnesses want to stick around for this discussion. It is going a little longer than I thought. I'll leave that up to you, but maybe the clerks and the analysts can answer those questions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Yes. This may take a little while longer. I just want to see if there's the consent of the committee to excuse the witnesses.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
With that, I want to thank very much our three witnesses for appearing, and two of our witnesses for appearing twice at this committee. That really speaks to your commitment and the importance of this issue.
I want to thank you very much for your time. If there is anything that you want to share with this committee on this topic that you didn't get a chance to share in the questions and answers or in your opening remarks, please submit that in writing, and we'll be able to incorporate it into the report that's going to be forthcoming.
With that, thank you so much for your time. You're excused to leave at your convenience.
President and Chief Executive Officer, BC Métis Federation
Thanks for having us.
The Clerk
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
To answer the questions, this is relatively new. We're not sure exactly how long we would need. This is something we can and will look into. The Office of the Law Clerk is looking into this. We require their help to draft the contract.
However, on our side, once we know what the services look like, we'll draft a budget that would need to be approved by the committee. The chair may decide when to convene the committee on that matter. After that, this budget needs to go to the Liaison Committee. I am not sure when they would meet, but it would be up to members to see if and when the Liaison Committee can meet to approve this budget.
With that said, I am familiar with the steps, but I can't provide an exact timeline. It is up to the committee to decide when they meet and when they want things done by.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much.
Before we go to Mr. Lemire, I have something I want to say.
The other thing to consider, should we be able to track down these two individuals and get their testimony, is how to find a way to incorporate that testimony into the report and meet the timeline. There is that aspect to think about as well.
Mr. Lemire, the floor is yours.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Yes, this study will be incomplete without their testimony. We'll have to be flexible. We may have to approve these budgets or the contract by email, for example. If that means we have to meet during the last week of December or in January, I'll make myself available.
Liberal
Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT
Was he finished?
Mr. Chairman, I'm trying to follow the intent of the motion.
It sounds like we want to hire bounty hunters or a repo man to drag these people kicking and screaming over here. I'm not clear. I would really like to get a better understanding of what the intent is. Is it to find out where they are? That doesn't mean we are going to be able to compel them to come. If they still refuse, are we dragging them in here in handcuffs, or what? It seems we're going to very extreme measures that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with.
I'm not saying I'm totally against it, but I don't understand what we're doing here with the bounty hunting.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. McLeod.
I don't know whether someone wants to speak to that.
Go ahead, Mr. Schmale.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Thank you, Chair.
To my colleague here, the House has the ability to compel witnesses or bring them to committee, so we have that behind us. The committee does not have the same powers as the House to bring witnesses before them. This is a House order, and the House passed the motion to complete this study. As Mr. Lemire pointed out, it would be incomplete without them.
I am willing to leave a lot of latitude to the chair in order to work with his team to figure out the next steps, including the budget, so that we can vote, and I agree that we have to be flexible. If it means voting through email or if it's fairly simple, I'm prepared to do that. We're willing to be as flexible as possible, as long as we don't push it down the line too far.
I don't know whether Bob has anything to add to that.