Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 3rd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Chief Lampreau.

We sympathize with the difficulties you're going through. Perhaps we will get into that with questioning.

We will start with a round of questioning.

Since we've combined the two panels, I'm not 100% sure of who's going to go first for the Conservatives, Mr. Schmale or Mr. Vidal.

Whomever it is, please go ahead. You have six minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I'll give it a shot.

I appreciate the testimony from our witnesses today.

I'll start with Chief Lampreau, if I could.

Chief, you were speaking with a lot of emotion, and rightfully so. We can tell in your voice you're handling a lot right now, obviously, and you're under very difficult circumstances.

Before I get into my questioning, if I could, MPs Dan Albas and Brad Vis send their regards to you and again offer their assistance. If you need any help with things, they've offered their services, as I'm sure you know. I'm sure you've talked to them about that.

Chief, if I could, I'll pick up on the end of your last comment about safer lands. If you're talking about moving, that's a very big decision. It involves a lot of partners and a lot of conversations. Out of curiosity, have you had any discussions with the federal government about moving? If you have and you're allowed to speak to them, how have those conversations gone?

[Chief Arnold Lampreau]

Right now, I haven't had the opportunity yet to speak to any of the federal people about getting a chance to move or finding safer land, for that matter.

When we look at the lands that are within the Shackan Indian Band, we have IR#11, IR#12 and IR#13. IR#12 is pretty much like a valley. It's a three-sided valley, so it goes in two different directions. It's a triangular valley. In the middle of that triangle is where they have IR#12. It's not a very big piece of land, but it's also on the side of the hill where there's basically no sunshine. It's a tight little valley.

The other parcel of land that IR#13 is on is at an elevation of 4,500 feet. It would be a challenge to live there, maintain the roads and get power and infrastructure to it to even maintain a place to live.

In IR#11, the valley of the Nicola Valley, the river bottom is what has sustained us since the reserve was developed in the years of Sprott. When we look at trying to get some land that's more feasible for.... We went from probably 30 people way back in the day to 130 now. The thing is, though, as pandemics hit and the IRs.... Different things like that have challenged a lot of our bands throughout Canada. Maintaining our membership has also been challenging, but the amount of land we have to sustain us is very little.

Thank you.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I can tell in your voice you're dealing with a lot.

When the recent round of flooding happened, what was the reaction like from Indigenous Services Canada? Was there assistance being offered? Were they easy to communicate with? Can you give us a brief rundown?

[Chief Arnold Lampreau]

Basically, right now in British Columbia, we're getting high rain alerts in the interior. I'm on the coast. I'm receiving emails even as we speak here. My phone is pinging away. What happened in November was that we expect November rains. We always have because it's part of that area, and the rains basically give us the mushrooms and the late-time harvesting of food.

When November happened, it really caught us off guard because a lot of us were hunting and never got a chance to go fishing. We bought fish last year, and I just came out of a meeting where DFO is doing a presentation right now on fish. We spent around half a million dollars. Eight bands of us through one of our corporations bought fish from Alaska, and it cost around $500,000 to $700,000 just for eight bands.

When we look at the economics and the diversity of food sources and sustenance, it comes at the heels of mother earth and what she's going to provide. Just prior to the floods, we had the fire, so we basically had no more food to gather out there because everything was burnt around us. Then the fall rains started happening, and even the fish that were spawning in the Nicola River and some of the creeks that we have were basically rubbed out because of the high water that came down.

Yes, it caught us off guard. Many of our freezers were full. Some of the people did not want to leave, and 12 people stayed. We made sure that they had ample water and stuff like that, even though it was 6:30 in the morning when I was evacuating people. I called an order. I'm really glad that I did and made the right choice.

Getting back into that place was really a challenge. It cost a lot of money and three hours one way to get back into the community through the mountains and through snow, so all of our food that we had for our winter sustenance was basically spoiled. I had to send the crews back in there to throw out all our food from the freezers, basically remove the freezers out of the houses so that the smell wouldn't be there when we came back. We prepared the houses for winterizing, getting the plumbers in there, draining the hot water tanks and draining the main reservoir for the community.

All of that preparation had to be done before it froze solid, so we didn't have an additional cost to ISC and whatever, but ISC was very.... I guess what happened was that, when we went to Merritt, when we evacuated to Merritt from the flood, we got to Merritt, and then Merritt was evacuated, which makes it really tough. What happens is that, when we run to Merritt, we always say Merritt is our place of safety. It's like our other community, so when we got to Merritt, we got evacuated. The whole city of Merritt was evacuated, but not only that, we had the people who were evacuated from the fires, the Lytton people and the people from Nicomen and Skuppah down in the lower Fraser River. They were evacuated, and they were all in Kamloops.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Chief, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but we have to get some other questions in as well, so please just wrap up there.

[Chief Arnold Lampreau]

Yes, so anyway, I was just trying to say that, when we got to Kamloops, EMBC did a terrible job, just rolling it out to where ISC rolls in. ISC rolls in, and we call ISC and, first of all, we had to ask for some funding for civil engineers so that we could get drone flights right away and map out some of the devastation that happened, and they okayed that. Then the second part was a meeting with ISC again to develop a budget for zero to 60 days. We needed funding for that, emergency funding for our people, because EMBC left us high and dry in a cold ice arena.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Lampreau. Perhaps you'll get to continue with another questioner, but I have to go to the next person.

Mr. Weiler, it's over to you.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate all the witnesses joining today and sharing their thoughtful testimony. I can imagine how painful it is to relive the events that occurred last year in British Columbia.

I just want to give Mr. Lampreau an opportunity to finish what he was saying about his interactions with ISC.

[Chief Arnold Lampreau]

The zero to 60 days came. We were really lucky to have a band manager who had that expertise and put that budget together. We submitted it to ISC. ISC said, “We'll have it to you within a week.” We waited for two weeks. We never got a response. I phoned Minister Rankin. Minister Rankin said, on that day, “I'll phone you in half an hour,” and it was approved.

ISC has been really, honestly, tremendously good. As far as EMBC goes, we've had no help from them.

ISC has been really good, and I really hold my hands up to them. Thank you.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

I would like to ask my next question to Mr. Lamont.

You mentioned, going through your five challenges, that one of those was wildfires. That's one of the reasons it's really important that we're doing this study today. We're quickly approaching wildfire season again, and we don't want it to be a rehash or recurrence of what happened last year.

You mentioned that some of the desires of the Tsay Keh Dene Nation were for more training and more equipment for the nation to be able to better respond to wildfires this year. In the budget this year, we have proposed just that. I was hoping you could speak a little more toward how those resources could best be allocated to help with wildfire prevention this year and going forward for Tsay Keh Dene.

[Raymond Lamont]

Thank you for the question. Before I respond directly to the question, here is some context.

I alluded to wildfires that occurred last year and that caused destruction. A large part of the Tsay Keh Dene indigenous protected area in the Ingenika was destroyed by a wildfire. That was a wildfire that was detected very early on by Tsay Keh and reported to the B.C. Wildfire Service, but it was not actioned. The fire grew out of control, and there was a concern within Tsay Keh that the fire might spread and potentially affect the Tsay Keh Dene community.

That's not an isolated case. It's reinforced for Tsay Keh that Tsay Keh must develop its own wildfire response capability. A wildfire response monitoring capability that enables Tsay Keh to action fires early on could prevent wildfires from growing out of control. Tsay Keh operates businesses, including Chu Cho Industries. Chu Cho Industries is a business that owns substantial equipment, which it uses in construction, mining and forestry. They have some capability in managing major projects. They have some capability in responding to wildfires.

From time to time, Tsay Keh has been approached through Chu Cho Industries about responding to wildfires. Unfortunately that capability is not adequate. It needs to be expanded. They're not always based in the community. They're normally based elsewhere. The plan is that if we can raise sufficient funding to carry out necessary training and acquire new equipment, Tsay Keh intends to establish a very robust wildfire monitoring and response capability. That would enable Tsay Keh to detect fires early on and, where they are detected, to respond to and action those fires before they burn out of control.

Again, I want to be very cautious. The B.C. Wildfire Service is obviously overwhelmed and under-resourced, and that's a reflection, in part, of the seriousness of the problem with wildfires in B.C. at the present time. Climate change has substantially exacerbated the problems with wildfires, and B.C. Wildfire Service is struggling to respond. Tsay Keh, as a steward of the lands and resources in its territory, believes it has a role in responding to wildfires. If we have the resources to do it, Tsay Keh can execute on this.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you very much for that.

Maybe further to that point, of course it means as much as possible being able to detect early on, but also there are ways to mitigate that risk from coming to the fore. You did mention plans to be able to harvest dead wood that is becoming kindling for wildfires.

[Raymond Lamont]

Yes.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

I am just hoping you could perhaps give some recommendations to this committee on what the Government of Canada should do to focus on that mitigation point of view, as well as perhaps some traditional practices that the Government of Canada might be able to observe and be able to support as well.

[Raymond Lamont]

Fuel management is a major issue. I know there is an ongoing debate in B.C. about forest management and some gaps or deficiencies on how the province is approaching fuel management in B.C.

Tsay Keh in the past, historically, practised controlled burning. Controlled burning, if properly planned and executed, can mitigate the risks associated with catastrophic wildfires.

Tsay Keh has been in conversations with the province about not only developing a wildfire response capability, but Tsay Keh believes it should have a bigger role in forest management in its traditional territory. We are interested in collaborating with the province if we can obtain the resources to collaborate with B.C. in developing strategies for fuel management to mitigate the risks of wildfires.

Controlled burning is part of the solution. There are other solutions that, based on Tsay Keh Dene traditional knowledge and experience in the territory, we think can be successfully implemented.

Again, the thing that Tsay Keh struggles with constantly is that, even though we have very good ideas and we believe that we have solutions that will benefit everyone, we lack the resources to execute those ideas.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Mr. Weiler.

Mrs. Gill, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I’d like to thank all the witnesses for being with us today.

As they have said, including Chief Ottawa, all the crises we’re currently facing are connected to climate change. Everyone is experiencing it.

Chief Ottawa, I’d like to ask you a very broad question.

I know that Manawan had large fires in 2010. Could you talk about your experience and the gaps in community assistance?

To help the committee carry out its work, can you tell us what the government could do to support the community?

[Chief Paul-Émile Ottawa]

Thank you for the question, Mrs. Gill. It’s a very good one.

Indeed, in 2010, a violent forest fire ravaged the Manawan area. I remember that in 2010, it was hot in Quebec and in northern Ontario. The drought led to major forest fires. On May 30, a large forest fire was burning in our territory and forced the population to evacuate. We acted in a somewhat makeshift way, as we weren't prepared for such a situation.

At the time, there were so many forest fires in Quebec that the Société de protection des forêts contre le feu, or SOPFEU, the organization mandated to fight forest fires, had mobilized its human and material resources to other regions. However, we considered the forest fire near Manawan a serious threat to the safety of our members, as well as the village.

Given that SOPFEU and the provincial government couldn't deploy teams to come and tackle this devastating event, the community had no choice but to fight the forest fire on its own, since it didn't seem to be anyone else's priority. We organized ourselves with what means we had and our very limited resources, which are still limited today. The Council had to use the money from federal transfers to acquire equipment the community needed. We bought what are called Indian fire pumps, and we rented pumps to protect the territory and the community. It was hugely expensive.

When we sat down with government authorities, the Department of Indian Affairs at that time, it was extremely difficult. We were told that the money we had used to buy equipment to fight the forest fire wasn't part of the agreements, despite the fact that we had no other choice. We had to protect our community, and we decided to do it this way. It took a lot of negotiation to get the government to accept the invoices we sent them back then.

It was in fact extremely arduous for the Council to be fully reimbursed for equipment needed to fight the forest fires, even though our objective was to protect the community.

In the last two years, during the winter, in the midst of the pandemic, our drinking water system failed. Fortunately, it was easier in that case.

It’s important for government to look seriously at the needs of remote communities. In our case, the nearest municipality is 85 kilometres from our village. If a forest fire were to occur, it would be a real disaster for our community.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

If a similar situation were to happen again, do you think you’d be ready to face it?

[Chief Paul-Émile Ottawa]

We're no better prepared than we were before.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Gill.

I now give the floor to Ms. Idlout.

Ms. Idlout, you have six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᐄ, ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ ᐋ ᓯᕗᕐᓕᕐᒥᒃ ᑕᒪᑦᓯ ᐅᓂᒃᑳᕆᖃᖅᑐᖅᑐᓯᒍᑦ ᐋ ᑐᓐᖓᓱᑦᑎᑦᑐᒪᓪᓗᓯ ᐋ ᐊᑦᓱᐊᓗᒃ ᑐᓴᕐᓂᖅᑐᐃᓐᓇᐅᒐᑦᓯ ᐱᒻᒪᕆᐊᓗᓐᓂᒃ ᐅᓂᒃᑳᖅᑐᐃᓐᓇᐅᑎᓪᓗᓯ, ᐋ ᓯᕗᓪᓕᕐᒥ ᐊᐱᕆᔪᒪᔪᖓ ᕋᐃᒪᓐ ᓚᒫᓐᑦᒧᑦ, ᐋ ᓇᐃᑦᑐᒥᒃ ᐅᖃᐱᓪᓚᖅᑲᐅᒐᕕᑦ, ᐋ, ᓄᓇᖃᖅᑳᖅᓯᒪᔪᖁᑎᑦᓯᓐᓂᒡᒎᖅ ᐱᕚᓪᓕᕈᑎᓂᒃ ᑐᑦᓯᕋᕆᐊᖃᖅᑑᔮᕐᓂᕋᐃᓪᓗᓂ ᐱᑕᖃᑦᓯᐊᖏᒻᒪᒡᒎᖅ ᑕᒪᓐᓇ ᐃᓛ ᐃᓱᒫᓘᒋᒐᒃᑯ ᐋ ᖃᖓᑐᐃᓐᓇᖅ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᑳᖅᓯᒪᔪᖅᑎᒍᑦ ᐋ ᐅᓂᒃᑯᐊᑎᐅᒐᐃᒑ-ᒐᑦᑕ ᐱᕙᓪᓕᕆᐊᖃᖅᑕᕗᒡᒎᖅ ᑲᐹᓯᑎᖑᓂᕋᖅᑕᐅᔪᖅ ᐱᑕᖃᓐᖏᓗᐊᕐᓂᖓᓂᒃ ᑖᓐᓇᓕ ᑐᓴᕐᕕᒋᒍᒪᕙᒋᑦ ᖃᓄᖅ ᐋᒻ ᐱᕚᓪᓕᕈᑎᓂᒃ ᐱᔭᕆᐊᖃᕐᒪᖔᖅᐱᑦ ᐅᓂᒃᑲᐅᑎᑦᓯᐊᕈᓐᓇᕈᕕᐅᒃ ᑐᑭᓯᐊᒪᑦᓯᐊᕐᓂᐊᕋᑦᑕ ᖃᓄᖅ ᐃᑲᔪᖅᑕᐅ-ᒋᐊᖃᕐᒪᖔᑦᓯ ᐱᕚᓪᓕᕈᑎᓂᒃ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

First, I wish to thank you for coming here and giving us your presentation, and welcome to the committee. Your reports are very interesting. You have a heavy responsibility.

I'd like to ask Raymond a question first.

You said in your brief that the indigenous people should have applications for funding where programs do not exist and services do not exist. Whenever we mention indigenous people and what we lack in capacity in the community and in the human resource field, it's always very interesting. I would like to know what you think we need to do to move forward so indigenous people will get the help that they need now faster and more efficiently.

[English]

[Raymond Lamont]

Mr. Chair, unfortunately, I did not hear the translation. For some reason, my translation function is not operating properly. If I could get a very short summary of the question, I believe I can respond to it.

I apologize.