Evidence of meeting #29 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was northern.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Heather Nicol  Director, School for the Study of Canada, Trent University, As an Individual
Heather Exner-Pirot  Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Vanessa Davies
David Joanasie  Minister of Community and Government Services, Government of Nunavut
Darcy Gray  Listuguj Mi'gmaq Government
Joe Alphonse  Tsilhqot'in National Government

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

We are gathered here today on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

Today, we will continue our fourth study, which pertains to Arctic sovereignty, security and emergency preparedness of indigenous peoples.

On today's first panel we will be hearing from Dr. Heather Nicol, director of the School for the Study of Canada at Trent University, as well as Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot, senior fellow at the Macdonald-Laurier Institute.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules for all of us to follow.

Members or witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services in English, French and Inuktitut are available for the first part of today's meeting. Please be patient with the interpretation.

The interpretation button is found at the bottom of your screen, for those of you who are attending virtually. You can listen in either English or French. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately and we will ensure interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, that will be done by the proceedings and verification officer.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, please mute your mike.

As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

We'll start off as usual, with our two witnesses each having five minutes for introductory remarks. I would ask them to keep that at five minutes. Then we'll proceed with the first round of questions.

I'd now like to invite Dr. Heather Nicol to start us off.

11 a.m.

Dr. Heather Nicol Director, School for the Study of Canada, Trent University, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

I was actually hoping that Heather Exner-Pirot would go first, because she always has, I think, more interesting and more informative things to say than I do.

I'm speaking from the perspective of an educator, somebody who has been involved in the delivery of courses, particularly through UArctic's circumpolar courses, and who works at an institution that has a focus on educating about the north, but not from the perspective of the north.

That's led me to something I would like to share with you today that I take quite seriously, which is how to align the current needs for education, curriculum and educational development in the north—something I'm quite interested in—with the need for maintaining and creating a culturally relevant and co-created curriculum. I would align that more specifically with another great need in education in the north, which I think is underdeveloped, particularly in light of events that have happened both over the weekend on the east coast and, more sadly, in western Canada, on the James Smith Cree Nation. This would be the need for training and a co-development of post-secondary accredited education at existing northern institutions on disaster management, on community policing, on logistical planning and response, all of which require both specialized equipment and highly qualified personnel at the community level.

I know that Canada's Arctic and northern policy framework suggests the capacity of northern communities to face the looming threat of climate change and human vulnerability has to be developed in order to deliver and ensure security in the north, but I don't think, really, that policy framework encourages the development of civilian capacity, in specific ways.

I've made a submission before with Dr. Christian Leuprecht from the Royal Military College on the role of Canadian Armed Forces, but I think it's more than this. I would argue that there's a lot of responsibility.

I've been involved in many activities designed to raise awareness of the need for a civilian and military involvement in delivery of human security in the north. Even at meetings designed to talk about the role of defence and the military, communities' response is that we need to be trained ourselves. We're on the front line of the arc of unprecedented climate change and other forms of disaster created by climate change and vulnerability in other forms of insecurities that are coming about because of increased human activity in the north, and we need to be trained.

We can talk about this later. There are a number of programs from the Canadian government's side that are looking to increase capacity in training. What I'm talking about really is accredited post-secondary education. We have CHARS research lab in Cambridge Bay, the High Arctic Research Station, and that's there to track scientific community to the north and encourage it to interact with northern communities, but we haven't, to my knowledge, developed any kind of sustained, accredited, civic program there for training in disaster response. Again, we can talk about this later.

We speak often about building cultural resiliency in the north and co-creating programs and curriculum for that, but I think that developing capacity in the north is incredibly important. If you note, throughout Canada there are probably nine universities that offer disaster training at both the undergraduate and graduate level along these kinds of lines, yet none of them are oriented towards northern disaster, northern response, northern planning or northern logistics. This is a very different context and situation for training.

There are models for the sort of thing I'm proposing. I'm proposing basically appropriate funding for targeted programming at institutions that could be encouraged to develop appropriate regional training and research from a northern point of view. It's research and curriculum that I think are interesting.

Certainly, there are models in Alaska, centres that have been developed to do this sort of thing, but only two universities in Canada offer comprehensive disaster management curriculum at the undergraduate level, and then there are several more that offer at the graduate level.

In light of those realities, I think a targeted funding focus with program development at federal and provincial/territorial level could serve to increase overall public safety and emergency management capacity and capability in the Arctic and its communities consistent, I think, with the aspirations of the Arctic and northern policy framework.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Dr. Nicol.

We will now go to Dr. Exner-Pirot.

You have five minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute

Good morning, Mr. Chair and committee members.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today. It's a pleasure to follow on the remarks of my colleague Dr. Nicol.

I want to focus my opening remarks on how I believe the Russian invasion of Ukraine has impacted Arctic security and the ways that Canada should respond.

I am a student of the Arctic Council and have long admired and celebrated the ability of that forum and of Arctic co-operation in general to compartmentalize itself from broader geopolitical tensions.

I note, Mr. Chair, that you were Canada's representative at the last Arctic Council ministerial.

I have led a group of fellow scholars to nominate the Arctic Council for the Nobel Peace Prize and have authored peer-reviewed articles describing the Arctic's exceptionalism in international affairs, so it is with a heavy heart that I now consider the extraordinary period of Arctic co-operation between Russia and the West, beginning in 1987 with Mikhail Gorbachev's famous Murmansk speech calling for the Arctic to be a zone of peace, to be over and the work of building a new era—

11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Mr. Chair, sorry to interrupt Ms. Exner‑Pirot, but I am told it is impossible to interpret due to the sound quality.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

I'm sorry to interrupt you, Dr. Exner-Pirot, but we're having a translation problem at the moment.

Can you just hold on a sec? We'll pause. You won't lose any time.

Ms. Gill, I am told the interpreters cannot do their job because the sound quality of the witness's microphone is poor.

Do you agree that she should continue?

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

For the committee's needs, I can certainly agree to her continuing, but I will of course have to note [inaudible].

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Very well, thank you.

Dr. Exner-Pirot, please continue your testimony.

11:10 a.m.

Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute

Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot

Thank you.

I have three main recommendations to prepare for this new Arctic security paradigm.

The first is one the government has already undertaken and that is to adequately fund NORAD modernization. I want to express my support for this position and I hope, as I know all of you do, that northern indigenous communities and businesses will benefit economically from the investments being made and be included in the civilian decision-making processes. Nuclear deterrence and continental defence are not luxuries that we can put on the back burner any longer.

The second is for Canada to welcome and support a stronger NATO presence in the Arctic. Both Conservative and Liberal governments have opposed this in the past for good reasons, but the imperative to defend against Russia, especially as the northern flank of NATO will get much larger with Finland and Sweden joining, is now much different. I will say that the probability of military conflict in the Canadian Arctic remains very low but it is much higher in northern Europe and especially in the Baltics and around the Barents Sea. Canada should be prepared to support its allies there.

The third recommendation, which has been less discussed, is how to proceed with the Arctic Council. It is currently on pause and the question of how and to what extent to involve Russia is being debated now in foreign ministries in Washington, Oslo, Copenhagen, Helsinki and beyond. There are no easy answers but I am convinced that the Arctic Council cannot go on as it has and must become an A7. I cannot imagine having ministerial meetings and family photos with Sergei Lavrov or any other Russian minister so long as Putin is in power. Any regime change will take years and Putin may be replaced by someone worse. It will be too long to simply pause, so we must evolve.

There remain issues that require communication and even co-operation with Russia, such as understanding and mitigating the impacts of climate change, managing the development of fisheries in the Arctic Ocean, and regulating marine shipping. I believe we can create space for this to be done at a technical level and on issue-specific concerns without the restraints and concessions that a regional organization such as the Arctic Council would impose.

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Pardon me, Mr. Chair.

On second thought, I am wondering what would happen if, on the other hand, there was no interpretation for someone speaking in French only. Would we decide to suspend the meeting or wait?

In the interest of fairness, I would rather wait until interpretation can be provided so I can understand everything Ms. Exner‑Pirot says.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Of course, Ms. Gill. It will take a week or a few days.

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

I'm sorry, but it is a question of principle.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

So we will stop here.

We will continue with questions.

I am going to have to ask you to stop at that point, Dr. Exner-Pirot, and we'll proceed with a question period, however, if a question is addressed to you, we're not going to be able to have that unfortunately because the translation is not available of sufficient quality.

The quality is not sufficient for the interpreters to take the English that's being spoken and translate it into French unfortunately.

We're stuck in that situation. I would have thought this would have been checked beforehand.

11:10 a.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Vanessa Davies

We did check and unfortunately it didn't work out.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

It didn't work out. We should have been notified.

I'm afraid we have only one alternative, colleagues, and that is to ask our questions to Dr. Nicol.

What say you?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

There's nothing we can do to improve [Inaudible—Editor].

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Apparently, there is not.

We talked to the IT people, but let's wait for five minutes and see if we can do something about it.

We're going to pause for five minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Everyone can come back.

Ms. Exner‑Pirot is wearing headphones. We'll check to see if it's working.

Ms. Gill, if you cannot hear the interpretation, we will stop.

Dr. Exner-Pirot, I understand you're wearing a different headset. Let's give that a go, and if that doesn't work, we'll go to plan B.

Please start off. The interpreters will let us know soon enough if it isn't working.

Please go ahead.

11:15 a.m.

Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute

Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot

Good morning, everyone.

I will go through it again so the French speakers can benefit. I will start with the three recommendations to prepare for the new Arctic security paradigm.

The first is one that the government has undertaken, and that is to adequately fund NORAD modernization. I want to express my support for their position and my hope, which I know all of you share, that northern indigenous communities and businesses benefit economically from the investments being made and are included in the decision-making processes. Nuclear deterrence and continental defence are not luxuries that we can put on the back burner any longer.

The second is for Canada to welcome and support a stronger NATO presence in the Arctic. Both Conservative and Liberal governments have opposed this in the past for good reasons, but the imperative to defend against Russia, especially as the northern flank of NATO will get much larger with Finland and Sweden joining, is now much different. I will say that the probability of military conflict in the Canadian Arctic remains very low, but it is much higher in northern Europe, especially in the Baltics and around the Barents Sea, and Canada should prepare to support its allies there.

The third, which has been less discussed, is how to proceed with the Arctic Council. It is currently on pause, and the question of how and to what extent to involve Russia is being debated in foreign ministries in Washington, Oslo, Copenhagen, Helsinki and beyond. There are no easy answers, but I am convinced that the Arctic Council cannot go on as it has and must become an A7. I cannot imagine having ministerial meetings and family photos with Sergei Lavrov or any other Russian minister as long as Putin is in power. Any regime change will take years, and Putin may be replaced by someone worse. It will take too long to just pause, so we must evolve.

There remain issues that require communication and even co-operation with Russia such as understanding and mitigating the impacts of climate change, managing the development of fisheries in the Arctic Ocean or regulating marine shipping. I believe we can create space for this to be done at a technical level and on issue-specific concerns without the restraints and concessions that a regional organization such as the Arctic Council would impose.

I want to conclude by reiterating for the committee that Russia has taken the choice of pursuing Arctic co-operation away from us. The West did everything possible to make it work and maintain a zone of peace for three decades, but now they have pushed us into a position where we can no longer paper over our differences. Russia has started a war of aggression. Russia has committed war crimes. Russia has threatened nuclear warfare, and Russia has plunged Europe and the world into an energy crisis.

There is a fine line between co-operation and appeasement, and, in retrospect, I fear we crossed it with our reaction to Russia’s invasion of Crimea in 2014. Because of our muted response, Russia was emboldened to invade Ukraine and commit its war crimes, and now the world is in crisis.

It is not business as usual anywhere, least of all the Arctic. Canada can lead in creating new processes, institutions and co-operation without them, not to antagonize Russia, but to deter them from future aggression.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Dr. Exner-Pirot.

We'll now proceed with the first round of questions beginning with the Conservatives.

Mr. Vidal, you have six minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank both of the witnesses. I'm going to try to get to both of you in my time, but I'm going to start with Ms. Exner-Pirot.

Your third recommendation talked about the Arctic Council becoming an A7 going forward. You talk about the status of it currently being on pause as the reason that we must evolve.

I would be curious to hear your perspective on how that plays out in the element of what I understand on the Arctic Council to be the indigenous permanent participants process, where there are a number of organizations and entities that are represented there, and they don't have any kind of legal standing, but they are able to have significant input. Some of those organizations include representation from Russia as well, if I look at the history of that.

In the context of the Arctic Council becoming an A7 going forward, how does that translate through to the indigenous permanent participant process in that council in your opinion, please?

11:20 a.m.

Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute

Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot

That's a great question. I was at a workshop in Boston when there were members from Gwich’in and also from the Sami, and they had some opinions on this that I'm happy to share.

That is obviously to the benefit of the Arctic Council, so there is concern from the indigenous side that, if you get rid of the Arctic Council, where will be the place that indigenous peoples are included to the level that they have been in the Arctic Council? In the status quo right now, it is not safe for Russian indigenous participants to speak out and to participate. The Sami and Gwich’in members remarked that they were not sure how they could approach or talk to their Russian colleagues without compromising their safety. I'm not sure what their Russian colleagues can say.

There are six permanent participants. Four of them have Russian participation. One of them is exclusively Russian, RAIPON, and they have come out in favour of the war in Ukraine. There isn't a lot of sympathy, I guess, to entertain RAIPON's inclusion, but with the other three current participants, that's a question that remains. That would be why I would favour having an A7, and it would be up to the indigenous permanent participants how they can maintain that collaboration with their Russian colleagues. That would be the reason you don't want to just get rid of all our Arctic Council or not have an A7, because everything would just kind of devolve into bilateral state institutions and not have that strong indigenous component.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Thank you for that. I appreciate your very thoughtful and intelligent response to any of the questions we have.

I'm going to flip over to Ms. Nicol for a minute.

You opened up a line of questioning for me that I wasn't thinking about today, Ms. Nicol, when you talked about the James Smith Cree Nation events of the last few weeks here. You talked about community policing. I had the privilege of meeting with one of the vice-chiefs of the tribal council of which James Smith Cree Nation is a member nation. We talked about community policing, but beyond that we talked about a community safety program that's more than just first nations policing. We also talked about the need to educate local people to be part of both of those components.

I would like to give you an opportunity to flesh that out a little based on what you spoke of in your opening comments and give you more time to talk about that specifically, please.

11:25 a.m.

Director, School for the Study of Canada, Trent University, As an Individual

Dr. Heather Nicol

Again, although I'm by no means an expert in community policing, I do understand there are several ways to approach community policing from an educational and training perspective. I know in my experience with northern Canada that's a little thinner on the ground than in the southern parts of Canada.

Some of the examples I have seen involve sending people for training out of the communities. Training is one thing, and training can be a couple of weeks long for community policing, but there are also community policing programs. I know we have one at my institution. It's not northern focused, but we have had discussions with some agencies about trying to flesh that out and create a greater focus.

But I don't think Trent University is necessarily the place to do community policing for the north. I think there are programs, there are curriculums, and with any curriculum, particularly in northern Canada, it has to be contextualized and it has to be co-created for communities themselves.

Broadening that out to thinking about public safety, it's very much the same issue. It's not just knowledge of logistics and planning. It's also knowledge of equipment, and how to manage that and understanding all the different agencies that are involved. I think this is a much bigger project—

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Dr. Nicol, I'm going to interject quickly because I have about 30 seconds.

I want to really quickly maybe speak to the cultural component that would be so very relevant in the training aspect of either community safety or community policing.