Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Sept. 26th, 2022

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

First, Chief Alphonse, maybe you could submit to the committee a written copy of your 33 calls to action coming out of your “The Fires Awakened Us”. That way they can be part of the committee report. You don't have to tell us now, but they can be included.

Second, to Minister Joanasie, you talked about Clyde River and you said that because of aging infrastructure, you had an emergency there—no fuel and no water. Can you quickly tell us what the problem with the infrastructure was?

[David Joanasie]

It was regarding a heavy equipment maintenance program issue that we were helping manage with the hamlet. The fuel that they were using was not adequate per se, and this was hindering their service to the community for plowing roads and whatnot. However, once we got that state of emergency declaration from the hamlet, we immediately provided the support that was needed at the time, looking immediately at what was there. For instance, the airport has heavy equipment on site that is owned and operated by the government, and which we provided to the hamlet. We flew diesel in to ensure that the equipment could run smoothly.

This goes to show that when our houses are not serviced in a timely and regular manner.... I mentioned that there were water tanks that were left empty, while, of course, the sewage tanks were left full, so this had an impact on the housing and the situation that individuals and families faced. The community was in great stress and the infrastructure also suffered as a result.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

For Chief Gray, it was flooding; for Chief Alphonse, it was fires; for Minister Joanasie, it was more of an infrastructure problem. I would suggest—because I've had problems like this in my riding with flooding as well, record flooding this spring in the Winnipeg River system in northwestern Ontario—that these sorts of happenings will become more frequent as a result of climate change. Within your communities, have you looked into the possibility that you will have increasing problems because of climate change? Do you have the resources to look at that and to make preparations while expecting that you'll have more of this to come? Do you have the resources? Have you done the studies?

I don't know who wants to start.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Why don't we start with Chief Gray, then Chief Alphonse and then Minister Joanasie.

[Chief Darcy Gray]

We've done some assessments of our risk for flooding, obviously. We share the same concerns that you raised.

With this specific flood, it was because of spring runoff, a lot of snow and warming temperatures. I think it's something that we can anticipate is going to continue, but one of the issues that we ran into was that the runoff had nowhere to go. There were key culverts, there were key streams that would naturally divert the runoff in the spring that had been blocked, and so we've done a lot of remediation work over the last number of years to fix those and reduce the risk.

We're also working on a shoreline restoration project and looking at how we can beef up some of those houses that are close to the shore or may be a little lower in the water table. We do what we can. We have, I think, two or three homes that have been recommended to be moved. Throughout, we're fortunate that we have had the support of ISC, and most of these projects or remediation efforts have been funded.

Again, I think we're fortunate that we have a lot of capacity here and the ability to do these projects, but we continue to be very concerned and monitor what's going on around us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Chief Alphonse.

[Chief Joe Alphonse]

I think to be prepared is one thing.... We're prepared. We live here. We've lived here for generations. If fire comes, we know what to do. Nowadays, we go from flood season in the spring to fire season and pandemics. We're well rehearsed.

The issue I see here is with government officials. As I said earlier, the fires were never a threat to us. It was government officials who were a threat. The first response of every government official who came into our community in 2017 was to ask questions like, “Do you guys even know how many people you have in your community? Do you guys even have a plan?”

Why is it that every non-aboriginal person automatically thinks a first nations community doesn't know what they're doing? We have the best policies and more experience than any community in Canada in dealing with fires. We would put our fire crews up against any crew in B.C. or in Canada. I'll guarantee you right now, my crews would win hands down.

ISC, after the fact, told us, “We're not paying you guys. The federal government is not fiduciarily responsible for first nations communities in emergency situations.”

Tell me where—

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Chief.

Minister Joanasie.

[David Joanasie]

There are many threats through climate change, particularly around our infrastructure. In my department we do a lot of site assessments and investigation of feasibilities, whether building anew or repairing and renovating existing infrastructure. We also want to include information to ensure that there is, for instance, permafrost, or if there's more spring runoff, that the effects of climate change are considered.

We want to have more resources around that, not just from my department. Looking at the Nunavut Department of Environment and also at the federal government, if there are those resources available, then we want to tap into them. By all means, we want to tap into opportunities where we can make sure that our buildings and the people that they serve are structurally sound and are able to withstand the climate that we live in.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Gill, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the three witnesses for their presentations.

First of all, like you, Chief Gray, my heart really went out to the people of Listuguj, Quebec and the Maritimes as a result of hurricane Fiona.

Chief Gray, you also felt for the people during flooding in recent years. The first of my two questions is for you and all the witnesses. It pertains to something you mentioned in your opening remarks regarding criteria that were changed during the crisis.

What can you suggest to the committee, while everyone is alert and concerned, so the communities do not have to worry about the future and are assured of support?

[Chief Darcy Gray]

We went ahead with the work with the direction, from the emergency management part of ISC, to get things done, to repair those homes and to make it happen quickly. So we did that, and surprisingly quickly. We had a number of homes up in the air. We were demolishing and repairing foundations. We were doing what we were told, building back better. That became the expected standard.

So whenever the shifting criteria came in—and from our perspective it was understandable that perhaps the cause of flooding in some basements was not specific to rising groundwater in 2018 but was perhaps a cracked foundation or an old foundation made out of cinder blocks, which still needed to be repaired—these things just didn't fall under those criteria.

For us, what would be really important would be knowing clearly up front what those criteria would or wouldn't be and then, when almost a double standard has been created because of those criteria, what other programs could supplement and support something that's very much needed. We had people who were displaced for months, living in hotels, expecting this work to be done and then the criteria shifted and they were saying that home shouldn't be up in the air right now, that we should not have started working on that home, that the flooding was because of a crack in the foundation, not because of high groundwater. That put a lot of strain on people.

Having good communication and clear guidelines would have done a lot to reduce those concerns and hardships.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Chief Gray.

If I understand correctly, you are saying that not having criteria that are known or constant could limit the types of work done and endanger people in the future.

My next question is for all the witnesses.

Something that comes up in all your testimony is that each community has experience and expertise relating to best practices. Chief Alphonse talked about forest fires, for instance. Chief Gray, for his part, talked about flooding along the shores of Chaleur Bay, which is his. Of course, all the communities have expertise.

Is there somewhere that expertise can be pooled?

Chief Alphonse said that, in addition to dealing with forest fires, his community is now having to deal with flooding, as well as other challenges. I am wondering if it would be helpful for all the first nations to pool their best practices.

So would it be helpful to have a structure where the first nations which have knowledge of the territory could share their various practices, in light of what Chief Alphonse said?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

The question is addressed to all three.

Perhaps, Chief Alphonse, you can kick it off, and then we'll go to the minister and then to Chief Gray.

[Chief Joe Alphonse]

Thank you.

We, again, are more than prepared to take on issues that are common in the Tsilhqot'in country—floods, fires, mainly fires—but it's a matter of recognition.

We are advocating the establishment of an evacuation centre. You evacuate communities, and a lot of times they're evacuated to big city centres. Their centres are set up in gymnasiums, cot after cot. This often reminds our people of residential schools. That's not appropriate. The food that's served is not culturally appropriate. Our people want meat and salmon, and they want meat and salmon well cooked. They just want it with rice or potatoes. It should be culturally appropriate. I know those people mean well, but they're missing the mark. They have to listen to indigenous leaders.

As I said, my plan, my emergency preparedness and governance in my community are probably better than that of any other community.

Our biggest obstacle is to recognize.... Their guidelines in 2017 were constantly moving. Even in terms of getting a reimbursement, they have one standard for B.C. wildfires and another standard for indigenous peoples. We just want to know what the regulations and rules are. We'll do that. We'll follow that. We have chartered accountants on staff to track every last detail of our expenditures and all of that, yet we still have to fight all of this. It's embarrassing, to tell you the truth.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Minister Joanasie.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

If I may, Mr. Chair, since time is short, I would like to ask the witnesses to reply in writing as to whether they think such a structure would be useful for them. They could reply more fully than during my speaking time, which I have already exceeded.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

To our witnesses, a request has been made to provide to the committee answers to the question that was asked, perhaps in writing. Would that be a possibility?

I see Chief Gray nodding, and Minister Joanasie as well.

Thank you for your answer, Chief Alphonse.

Ms. Idlout, you have six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

First, to all the witnesses, I'd like to welcome all of you. You're talking on very interesting topics.

I'd like to ask a question to Minister Joanasie. I am very grateful that I'll be able to talk to you in Inuktitut, my language.

In Parliament we hear the word “crisis” every day. You mentioned that critical infrastructure is outdated. The infrastructure is too old. Has your department estimated a dollar figure to meet the critical needs for the infrastructure for the people of Nunavut so they can be properly prepared to meet the critical needs in their communities?

[David Joanasie]

[Witness spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

They are very expensive in the north. A lot of them are provided to meet crisis needs.

I can say that every year we get funding. We request funding from our government. The Government of Canada also allocated some funds for the needs for the infrastructure, but it's never enough.

This is a very big topic and a big responsibility.

Thank you for providing funds, but certainly we still need a lot of funds for our critical needs, if you can understand me.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Can you clarify approximately what dollar figures you need to meet those critical needs? Exactly how much are you requesting?

How much do you need to deal with these critical issues?

[David Joanasie]

If I could give a dollar figure, it would probably be in the billions, easily.

Just with water and waste-water infrastructure alone, our communities are facing quite substantial needs. However, we are trying to make progress with the financial resources that we have available and that have been earmarked for major projects.

I can't specify a dollar figure, but it's easily in the billions.

My department is involved with capital planning processes for our government. That means we serve all of the other departments when they're creating new schools, health centres and whatnot, and all those other areas. The need is just so great.

I wish I could give you an exact figure. It would be very difficult to pinpoint it exactly, but I could easily say it would be beyond billions.

Thank you.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you very much for your answer and your clarification.

To my other question, this summer I was in Rankin Inlet, Nunavut. I was told by Mayor Towtongie about the critical need to update the water infrastructure. Without the proper investments in the community...it's about a proper emergency preparedness plan so that Rankin Inlet has a proper emergency preparedness plan for the water infrastructure.

[David Joanasie]

We work with every community to ensure that they have an up-to-date community emergency response plan, including around water availability and water sources. This is an area our government is trying to adjust for Rankin Inlet, specifically.

There's going to be heavy investment that we're putting toward the water infrastructure, recognizing that there's a great need in this particular community. It's not just about turning the tap water on, but also the growth the communities are experiencing around other facilities that are being built or are slated to be built.

In the long haul, the water treatment plant was in need of an upgrade, so that will be part of the process. We're looking at a three-pronged approach to Rankin Inlet.

To answer the question, yes, we have response plans in Kangiqliniq, as well as in other communities, to ensure they know what to do in case the tap water runs out.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much to our witnesses. That concludes our panel.

I know I speak on behalf of the committee in thanking you for your testimony today. You have all been living real emergencies, and you've described them very accurately and very vividly. You've also made some important recommendations, so we very much appreciate you taking the time to meet with the committee today.

Thank you very much.

The next meeting is a discussion of the non-insured health benefits report. Please come with your questions and comments.

This meeting is adjourned.