Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Sept. 26th, 2022

[Dr. Heather Nicol]

Yes, I think in giving a sense of the goals, the point of policing, the objects of policing, the problems...these are local, these are culturally contextualized, and they have to be addressed from local community cultural perspectives. They will be quite different from community to community.

I think this is an opportunity at a community level to co-create and work with educational partners to tailor courses at post-secondary institutions that already exist in the north. It's an opportunity to tailor them more specifically. There are a number of them so it doesn't have to be one-size-fits-all, but it builds cultural resilience as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Vidal.

We will now go to Ms. Atwin.

Ms. Atwin, you have six minutes.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our two witnesses this morning.

I would like to preface with an acknowledgement that I'm coming to you from the unceded unsurrendered Wolastoqiyik territories here in Fredericton, New Brunswick. Of course, in conversations around emergency preparedness I'm very much thinking about our colleagues and communities in the Atlantic. We're doing okay here in New Brunswick, but all Maritimers are connected so we're very much thinking about everyone who has been seriously impacted by Hurricane Fiona.

Dr. Nicol, I would love to begin with you. I very much appreciate the educator perspective you brought to the conversation today as that's also where I identify.

You have also opened up a new line of questioning: how do we characterize what a disaster is or what an emergency is? James Smith Cree First Nation certainly would fit in that category. I didn't previously anticipate that, so I want to thank you for bringing that into our discussion today.

You mentioned the need for research and programming. That's certainly where my headspace was, prior to coming into politics. There have been so many studies with incredible recommendations that have come out about supporting indigenous communities in the north, in terms of all these topics we're dealing with.

How can we be more effective in better communicating findings and actually implementing those recommendations, so we're not seeing these reports just collect dust on a shelf?

[Dr. Heather Nicol]

That's a great question. If we say the horse is out of the barn, maybe some of the reports are already collecting dust and we won't be able to go back and dust them off and hand them out.

I've seen some really interesting models being used in northern education in the institutions that are there. Certainly proceeding from the notion that it's a shared research project, a shared curriculum, there are precedents of co-created research shared, and there is knowledge about that. I think the problem is shifting that northward. The big projects and big reports generally come from southern institutions, and that's just fine, but the knowledge doesn't get institutionalized in northern universities.

I think the biggest message is to prioritize and fund northern institutions—and not just one or two. I know there's a smaller population base than in the south, but if you look at places like UNBC, you see a student population of roughly 3,000 to 4,000 students. That is a very effective, world-class institution. You don't have to have something the size of one U of T in the north. You need to have a number of high-calibre institutions that offer a culturally relevant, co-created curriculum. It's a two-way street. That information comes south. It isn't just us informing, because we don't have a sense of the ins and outs. The experts are there in the north.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

I'm going to completely switch gears, which I think characterizes the complex nature of this study.

Dr. Exner-Pirot, I'm particularly interested in what you brought forward today on the role of the Arctic Council. More specifically, you mentioned the idea of indigenous voices being adequately included in that space. Can you talk a little bit about what that looks like, and how we can safeguard that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Dr. Exner-Pirot, are you with us? We'll take a pause.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Dr. Exner-Pirot, can you hear us?

[Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot]

Yes. My sincere apologies. Now I'm on a laptop and the Wi-Fi is poor, which is why I tried the other computer and set-up before.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Mrs. Atwin, we have a minute and 37 seconds. Please go ahead.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm glad you're back with us, Dr. Exner-Pirot. My question was for you, around the role of the Arctic Council. You mentioned specifically how indigenous voices had been included. I'd love to learn more about that process and how to ensure that, as it moves forward in this new paradigm, we also include indigenous voices.

[Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot]

The Arctic Council is not a treaty organization; it's a forum. Notionally it works on environmental protection and sustainable development, but its main benefits have been co-operation with Russia, frankly, and including the indigenous voice. The question is how can it go forward with Russia, or not go forward as it is. I made my thoughts on that clear. How can it go forward with indigenous voices is the next step, if there was agreement that something has to change with Russia.

There are six permanent participants that are not exactly representative of all indigenous peoples and all northerners, but those six groups have some international indigenous coverage. They are very influential. Although it's a normative...there are no votes. They don't get a vote, but no one votes. All the senior Arctic officials are very respectful and inclusive, and appreciate the perspective of the indigenous people.

You can't just go into NATO, you can't just go into the International Maritime Organization, because those don't have the same level of indigenous participation. That's why retaining something of the Arctic Council is worthwhile. From my perspective, we have either an A7 with exactly the same rules of procedure and exactly the same declaration, or we take this opportunity to create a new A7.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Atwin.

I now give the floor to Ms. Gill.

Ms. Gill, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I apologize for what happened earlier. I did of course want to hear what the witnesses said, but out of respect for our interpreters' work, it is important for the sound to be good.

Ms. Nicol and Ms. Exner‑Pirot, your two presentations were very interesting.

Let me start with a question for Ms. Nicol regarding programs.

Ms. Nicol, you are in the north and I represent a northern riding, so the subject really interests me. We like research to be conducted in the field, on our territory, because we have the land and the expertise, as you said so well.

What weaknesses do you think need to be addressed in order to respond adequately to emergency situations in the north?

If we are asking for undergraduate or graduate programs, that means there is really not enough emergency management training offered even though, as you pointed out, a number of universities in southern Canada—nine, if I am not mistaken—offer that kind of training.

Which different programs are really needed to change the situation in Arctic communities?

[Dr. Heather Nicol]

I didn't get that in translation. Could I have a translation of the question? I caught the gist of it but not much at the end.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Dr. Nicol, do you have your little interpretation symbol, which is a globe, at the bottom?

I won't count the time.

Please start again, Ms. Gill.

She's going to start over. Hopefully, you will hear the English translation.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Nicol.

Let me say to both of you, Ms. Nicol and Ms. Exner‑Pirot, that I really liked your presentations.

I have two questions, first for Ms. Nicol, regarding programs.

Ms. Nicol, you said that undergraduate and graduate programs should be offered in the north, precisely because that is where the expertise is.

Since I come from a northern riding, I am very interested in the possibility of conducting research in the field.

You highlighted weaknesses in emergency response management and the whole issue of Arctic security.

What are the weaknesses or needs, if you wish, that such programs could address as compared to the undergraduate and graduate training that is offered at nine universities in southern Canada?

[Dr. Heather Nicol]

That is a good question. Thank you.

I will begin by saying that there is not a total lack of understanding of what I would call human security, which is this broadly defined way of seeing security and safety in the north as related to the spectrum of climate change, increased human activities and environmental changes that are happening rapidly. These notions of what human security is and education around human security are not entirely lacking at all. The UArctic, for a number of years, has had a circumpolar curriculum that involves northern students. Also, there are institutions now with northern studies and Arctic and subarctic studies that bring these basic ideas of the need and of the changing capacity and changing way in which security could be understood.

There's scientific research going on. There's research into cause and effect and research into what is happening. What is missing is this piece in the middle that would bring that knowledge and those results into a comprehensive, accredited training program within the curriculum of both new institutions that are being proposed—and I know that's the case—and existing accredited institutions. Memorial has its new Labrador Campus. YukonU has moved from being Yukon College to being Yukon University. There are, I think, appropriate post-secondary institutions.

I think below that—not below hierarchically, but below in the level of intensity—there is clear room for shorter, more vocational training in specific areas. That, I think, is probably under way as I speak. It's this notion of creating a generation of northerners who can envision—and bring that vision of security needs of the north to their institutions—and train further experts to make it normative so that security is a career option, a service that you can provide for your community, and a way of building knowledge and resilience, and supporting and preserving your communities in the future. It's a situated curriculum based on a very important need.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Exner-Pirot, I have a question about the Arctic Council, which also interests me. Russia is not represented right now, for the reasons you mentioned, but there is also the whole issue of the first nations permanent members. I am not sure if it is a problem that Russia is not represented, because the Sami people, for instance, are not all represented.

If the Arctic Council were to became an A7, as you said, how could we make sure those nations were also included? We see that, even though they are permanent members, they do not have the same access to the various bodies. You mentioned a forum with regard to the Arctic Council, but it is not necessarily easy for them to participate.

How do you see this renewed version of the Arctic Council? How could you more readily include the first nations members?

[Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot]

Thank you. I appreciate the question.

From my perspective, it's not necessarily true that if the Russian state is not represented, Russians in the Saami Council, the Aleut or the ICC are not represented. I would think it would be up to those organizations—the ICC, the Aleut and the Sami—to decide how to converse, communicate and work with their Russian colleagues and represent their interests to the Arctic Council.

I will say—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Ms. Exner-Pirot, I am returning from the Conference of Arctic Parliamentarians, and that is what happened with regard to the Sami people. That is why I asked you the question. That is what is happening right now.

[Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot]

It is my observation that it's rare. The people who attend Arctic Council meetings are generally not the Russian members of those organizations. It will be up to the Russian state whether they allow Russian indigenous members to travel internationally or whether there are any sanctions against any of this travel.

You could easily have the Arctic Council and the five other permanent participants at the A7. That wouldn't be an issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Ms. Gill.

We'll now go to Ms. Idlout.

Ms. Idlout, you have six minutes.

To our two witnesses, if it's not spoken in English and you want to hear it, choose "English" on the interpretation.

Please go ahead, Ms. Idlout.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᓯᕗᓪᓕᕐᒥᒃ, ᐋ, ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ ᑐᓐᖓᓱᒃᑎᒃᐸᑦᓯ ᐃᓘᓐᓇᓯ, ᓯᕗᓪᓕᕐᒥ ᐊᐱᕆᓂᐊᖅᑐᖓ ᕼᐃᑐᕐ ᓂᑰᓪᒧᑦ Heather Nicol, ᐅᕙᖓᓕ ᑕᑯᔭᒃᑯᑦ ᐃᓄᐃᓪᓗ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᑳᖅ-ᓯᒪᔪᑦ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᔪᖅᔪᐊᓐᖑᐊᓂᒻᒪᑕ ᓄᓇᒋᔭᕐ-ᒥᓐᓂᒃ ᓲᖃᐃᒻᒪᑦ ᐊᑯᓂ ᓄᓇᕆᔭᕐᒥᓐᓂᒃ ᐱᕈᖅᓴᖅᓯᒪᔪᑦ ᓄᓇᒋᔭᕐᒥᓐᓂᒃ, ᐃᒪᓐᓇᓕ ᐊᐱᕆᒍᒪᕙᒋᑦ ᑖᓐᓇ, ᐋ, ᐱᓕᒻᒪᒃᓴᐃᓂᖅ, ᐋ, ᐃᓄᒍᐃᓂᖅ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᖃᓄᖅ, ᐋ, ᐃᓕᓐᓄᑦ ᑐᑭᖃᖅᑎᒋᕕᒋᑦ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

From my perspective, Inuit indigenous leaders are already experts on the land where they have lived since time immemorial. When you talk about capacity building, what do you actually mean?

My question is to Ms. Nicol.

[English]

[Dr. Heather Nicol]

We have government agencies such as Public Safety and we have the Canadian Armed Forces responding. We have the RCMP and other agencies that respond to disaster, to events.

There isn't as much opportunity for those in the north to exercise their own agency in ways that are part of that disaster response scenario, particularly on a large scale. There's a need to both bring together the resources that some of our governmental agencies, both federal and territorial, have and match them with exactly that knowledge that Inuit and others who live in northern Canada have, and to create appropriate programming that develops that and brings that capacity to the forefront.

It's a question of security and safety for people who live there, and it's a question of involving people who live there rather than externally organizing a mandate and having all the training come from outside of the north or even from other countries. That's part of the problem too. I think it's bringing it home to integrate knowledge that is already there.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ, ᐄ, ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ, ᐋ, ᐅᓇ ᐱᖃᑖ, ᐋ, ᑕᒪᒃᓯᓐᓄᑦ, ᐋ, ᑭᐅᔭᐅᒍᓐᓇᕈᓂ ᐱᖃᑖ, ᕼᐃᑐᕐ ᑖᓐᓇ ᓯᕗᓪᓕᐅ-ᓗᓂᖃᐃ, ᑭᐅᔪᓐᓇᕈᓂ, ᐅᓇ ᐊᐱᕆᔪᒪᒐᒪ ᑲᓇᑕ ᖃᓄᖅ ᐊᐃᕙᑦᓯᐊᒃᑲᓐᓂᖅ-ᐹᓪᓕᕈᓐᓇᕐᒪᖔᑦ ᐋ, ᐱᔪᓐᓇᐅᑎᖃᕋᓗᐊᕋᑦᑕ, ᓱᖃᐃᒻᒪᑦ ᐅᑭᐅᖅᑕᖅᑐᕐᒥᒃ, ᐋ, ᐱᒋᔭᐅᓂᕋᖅᑕᐅᑎᓪᓗᑕ ᑲᓇᑕᒥ, ᓲᖅ ᑖᓐᓇ ᐃᓄᐃᑦ.

[Inuktitut text translated as follows:]

Thank you. I have another question. Perhaps Heather can go first. How can Canada start to negotiate more reasonably? We have our rights in the north, but we are told we are subjects of Canada.

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

How can Canada argue better its legal position on Arctic sovereignty based on Inuit use and occupancy?

[English]