Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 4th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Ms. Atwin, you have about 20 seconds left.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you so much.

Really quickly, if you can get an answer in, Mr. Calla, in what ways can we help modernize administrative capacity in communities?

[Harold Calla]

You're starting to by recognizing the need for aggregation.

We're starting a pilot project that will allow back-office functions to be undertaken on a collective basis, because many of the communities that are in smaller and remote areas can't attract the capacity and the human resources that are necessary. That concept of aggregation needs to be supported.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

All right, Mr. Calla, I'm going to have to cut you off.

Perhaps somebody will ask you a similar question, and you can carry on. I'm sorry about that.

Our third questioner is Mr. Jean‑Denis Garon, of the Bloc Québécois.

Mr. Garon, over to you for six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Chair, I will be representing the Bloc Québécois.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

You're back, then, Mrs. Gill.

Go ahead.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to make clear that the witness can send his response to the committee in writing. That's something you can request from time to time, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses, Mr. Daniels, Mr. Berna, Mr. Calla and Mr. Jules, for being here today.

Congratulations to the representatives of the First Nations Finance Authority on the organization's 15th anniversary. The authority was founded in 2006, so last year actually marked the 15th anniversary.

I want to talk about issues we haven't yet discussed.

You said that, out of the 579 first nations governments entitled to participate in the First Nations Fiscal Management Act, only 321 were. With all due respect, that makes me wonder whether a particular barrier has emerged or whether you think something is hindering economic development.

Are you able to tell us why some communities may be hesitant to participate?

[Harold Calla]

Is that for Harold, or who is it for?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Is the question for a specific witness, Mrs. Gill?

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

It's for whomever feels best suited to answer, although I suspect they all have insights to share.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Perhaps, Mr. Calla, you can launch it, and others can also speak.

[Harold Calla]

I think there are some philosophical barriers around aboriginal rights entitlement and fiduciary duty. What we have is what we refer to as a “coalition of the willing”, those who are looking for independent solutions to take care of themselves.

I think that's one of the fundamental issues, the belief, particularly in more historical areas where they've had treaties, that there is a fiduciary duty that's not being upheld. There's not a recognition of aboriginal rights, and there hasn't been a full settlement of land claims. Therefore, they feel that they may be eliminating the fiduciary duty of the federal government. That is an argument we heard when we were developing the legislation, but that's changing. When we developed this legislation, we were told there would be 25 first nations in Canada who would deal with it. We're now at 321, including some really successful communities in Quebec.

We're overcoming it, but that still remains the problem for some.

[Ernie Daniels]

I can add to that.

The real barrier is having an adequate revenue stream to support the debt. The only way we're going to grow and economic development is going to flourish is by having access to affordable financing. Under this act, we have been able to do that.

Once monetization is accepted as a form of funding infrastructure and economic development in Canada, you're going to see many first nations wanting to join in—more so than right now. When I started in 2011, here at the FNFA there were 69 first nations schedules under the act, and we're at 321 today, so there's a lot.

It's usually by example. For example, when I look at the Clearwater purchase by seven Mi’kmaq communities in the Atlantic, that was very innovative. That's economic development in its purest form, but they would not have been able to do that if their only choice had been to go to commercial banks.

Leveraging of revenues is important, and this is their own source of revenue that they're generating. However, a lot more could be done if more revenue streams were identified, as Mr. Jules mentioned in his presentation. We need a share of some revenue, and the provinces do that already. We need the federal government to actually look into that as well.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you for your answers. It's enlightening to hear that the economic development initiatives you are involved in now could help motivate other communities to take advantage of the act. The philosophical barrier is, of course, another matter.

I would like to recognize the first nations in my region, since you did bring up communities in Quebec. The Innu nation of Uashat‑Maliotenam and the Essipit Innu first nation are two first nations that have joined you in this endeavour.

Not long ago, I took part in the Grand Economic Circle of Indigenous People and Quebec. Women played a big role, which isn't surprising given how many new women entrepreneurs we are seeing. Obviously, our focus is first nations, but this is an issue that affects all communities.

Have you given any thought to the role women can play? I'm referring to governance, of course. On that front, have any barriers specific to women emerged?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Whoever chooses to answer, you have about 40 seconds.

[Harold Calla]

We don't experience it in what we do. I come from a matriarchal community, so I'm used to taking orders.

The reality is that there's probably more opportunity for women to move forward in the indigenous community in the kinds of things we're talking about. What we need are opportunities for inclusion. When I make reference to that, I'm talking about young people having the opportunity to participate, for instance, in a securities exchange commission role and learning about capital markets. We need all of our indigenous people and women to be part of that.

What I see in the indigenous communities we deal with is the emergence of women in our leadership at all levels, and I feel very good about that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Calla.

We'll now go to Ms. Idlout, from the New Democratic Party, for six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ. ᓯᕗᓪᓕᖅᐹᒥᒃ, ᑐᓐᖓᓱᒃᑎᑦᑎᔪᒪᕗᖓ ᐃᓕᖕᓂᒃ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ ᖃᐃᒐᑦᑎ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᖃᓄᐃᓕᖓᓕᕐᒪᖔᑦᓯ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᕆᓂᐊᖅᑕᓯ ᖃᓄᐃᓕᐅᖅᐸᒃᑕᑦᓯᓐᓂᒃ.

ᐊᐱᖁᑎᒃᓴᖃᖅᑐᖓ ᕼᐅᓗ ᑲᓚ ᐊᓪᓚᐃᑦ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᓕᕆᓂᕐᒧᑦ ᐊᐅᓚᑦᑎᔨᖏᓐᓄᑦ ᑲᑎᒪᔨ. ᑲᒪᓚᐅᖅᑐᖓ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖃᖅᑎᓪᓗᒍ ᐃᓐᓈᕈᑰᖓᔪᖅ ᓱᓪᓗᐊᓗᖕᒥᒃ.

ᖃᓄᖅ ᐅᑯᐊ ᐊᓪᓚᐃᑦ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᓕᕆᓂᕐᒧᑦ ᐊᐅᓚᑦᑎᔨᖏᓐᓄᑦ ᑲᑎᒪᔨ ᓴᐃᒪᖃᑎᒌᒃᑎᑦᑎᓂᖓ ᐊᓪᓚᐃᑦ ᓴᓇᔭᐅᖁᔨᓐᖏᑦᑐᑦ ᑕᒪᑐᒥᖓ ᐃᓐᓈᕈᑰᖓᔪᖅ ᓱᓪᓗᐊᓗᖕᒥᒃ? ᑕᐃᑲᓂ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᑎᒍᑦ ᒪᑭᒪᓇᓱᐊᕐᓂᕐᒧᑦ ᐱᕙᓪᓕᐊᑎᑦᑎᓂᖅ, ᖃᓄᖅ ᑕᐃᑯᖓ ᐋᕿᒍᑎᕕᓯ ᐊᖏᖃᑎᒌᒍᑎᑦᓯᓐᓄᑦ ᐊᖏᖃᑎᒌᒍᓐᓇᓚᐅᕋᓯ ᖃᓄᐃᓕᖓᕈᑎᖏᓐᓄᑦ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᐊᑐᖅᑕᖏᓐᓄᑦ? ᖃᓄᖅ ᐋᕿᒃᓯᓚᐅᖅᐱᓯ ᑕᒪᒃᑯᓂᖓ ᐱᔾᔪᑕᐅᔪᓂᒃ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᑎᒍᑦ ᒪᑭᒪᓇᓱᐊᕐᓂᕐᒧᑦ?

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Thank you. First of all, I'd like to welcome you and thank you for coming to us and giving us an update on what you do.

I have a question for Harold Calla from the First Nations Financial Management Board. I was shocked when he talked about the Trans Mountain pipeline.

How did the First Nations Financial Management Board reconcile with the first nations who had opposed the Trans Mountain pipeline? When it comes to economic development, how do you arrive at agreements when you disagree on certain ways and methods of doing things? How do you resolve those issues on economic development?

[English]

[Harold Calla]

First and foremost, the First Nations Financial Management Board doesn't get involved in the economic decisions of first nations. I was invited by Canada to participate on the board and I did. What I have observed, as a member of that board, is the number of first nations communities that did come forward and want to participate in the economic benefits that were being derived from that particular project.

I think it was accepted within the indigenous community that many communities would support it and many communities would not. The way to resolve those matters is up to the communities themselves. It's not for the financial management board to weigh into. That's not our role.

Our role is to provide capacity to first nations so that they are in a position to understand the kinds of things that are being put before them around these projects and are able to make a decision, having given free, prior and informed consent. In some cases, that is, “We don't support it. We won't support it.” In other cases it is, “We do support it.” It's not for us, as an institution supporting first nations, to make a judgment.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ.

ᐊᐱᖁᑎᒋᔪᒪᔭᕋ ᓱᓕ ᕼᐃᐅᓗ ᑲᓚ ᐱᔾᔪᑎᒋᓪᓗᒍ ᐃᓐᓈᕈᑰᖓᔪᖅ ᓱᓪᓗᐊᓗᖕᒥᒃ.

ᑲᑎᒪᔨᖃᖅᑐᑦ. ᑲᑎᒪᔨᐅᖃᑕᐅᕖᑦ ᑖᒃᑯᓄᖓ ᐃᓐᓈᕈᑰᖓᔪᖅ ᓱᓪᓗᐊᓗᓕᐅᖅᑐᓄᑦ?

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

I will ask this of Mr. Calla, again in regard to the Trans Mountain pipeline.

They have a board. Are you on the board of the Trans Mountain pipeline?

[English]

[Harold Calla]

I'm sorry, but can I ask you to repeat that, please?

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᐱᔾᔪᑎᒋᓪᓗᒍ ᑕᒪᓐᓇ ᐃᓐᓈᕈᑰᖓᔪᖅ ᓱᓪᓗᐊᓗᒃ, ᑲᑎᒪᔨᖃᖅᑐᖅ. ᑲᑎᒪᔨᐅᖃᑕᐅᕖᑦ ᑖᒃᑯᓄᖓ ᐃᓐᓈᕈᑰᖓᔪᖅ ᓱᓪᓗᐊᓗᓕᐅᖅᑐᓄᑦ?

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Regarding the Trans Mountain pipeline, it has a board. Are you on the board of directors of the Trans Mountain pipeline?

[English]

[Harold Calla]

Yes, I am on the board.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᐃᒡᓯᕙᖃᑕᐅᑎᓪᓗᑎᑦ ᑲᑎᒪᔨᓄᑦ ᐃᓐᓈᕈᑰᖓᔪᑦ ᓱᓪᓗᐊᓗᒃ, ᖃᓄᖅ ᐋᕿᒃᓯᖃᑦᑕᖅᐱᓯ ᐱᔾᔪᑕᐅᔪᓂᒃ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᓱᓪᓗᐊᓗᖕᒥ ᓴᓇᔭᐅᖁᔨᓐᖏᑦᑐᓄᑦ? ᖃᓄᖅ ᓴᐃᒪᖃᑎᒌᒍᑎᓕᐅᖅᓯᒪᕕᓯ?

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

When you sit on the board of the Trans Mountain pipeline, how are you able to resolve issues with those who oppose the pipeline? How do you reconcile?

[English]

[Harold Calla]

I can't. I can only go by what I believe in and the knowledge that the project was going to proceed and that there needed to be economic benefits for first nations if it were to proceed.