Evidence of meeting #3 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was calla.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Jamie Schmale
All right. We will do it by a show of hands. All in favour?
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Jamie Schmale
Okay. I guess next up is Madam Gill for...how many minutes?
Liberal
Conservative
Conservative
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Jamie Schmale
It's five minutes. Okay, the clock is starting, Marcus. It's all yours.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Thank you.
Thank you to the witnesses.
I have to say that, of all the committees that I've sat in, this is one of the few, with this group of witnesses, that actually makes me happy. I think you will all agree that the answer to so many of the difficulties facing the indigenous community is education and economic prosperity. What makes me happy, I guess, is to see that the indigenous financial community has such capable leadership. I envision good things to come.
But certainly the government has to give the indigenous community the tools it needs to achieve its goals, and Manny talked about the need for legislative change. He also talked about wanting, seemingly, to have jurisdiction to tax in other areas.
I see that under the Indian Act, section 83 gives chiefs and councils the power to tax with respect to local purposes of land or interest in the land. The First Nations Fiscal Management Act gives chief in council, I think, basically the similar powers.
I would take it, Mr. Jules—and I hope I can call you Manny—that you want to extend that power to tax in other areas. Of the list you mentioned, the only one I remember is marijuana, but I think there were other things.
Would your proposal be to change the Indian Act and the First Nations Management Act in order to allow taxation in those other areas, and what areas would those be? Could you really do it by this summer? And who would have the power to determine what they would tax? Would it be the individual chief and council, or would the indigenous community as a whole be able to tax with relation to, say, marijuana?
Clarence T. (Manny) Jules
It's a multipronged question.
The message is very clear: The more tax jurisdiction we have, the less liability and therefore oversight from any other government. We need tax jurisdiction just like every other government.
I think a lot of these issues like tobacco, cannabis, fuel, excise and income tax could all be looked at through the budget implementation act. I think these are areas where we've asked for an expansion of jurisdiction.
When it comes to the timelines, what I'm proposing through the infrastructure institute is having the legislation passed by the summer.
The tax jurisdiction ultimately rests with the community. When you talk about the Indian Act, section 87 says that it's an individual right. The only override is the individual community. The community has to make a decision about what kind of tax jurisdiction it should overcome and take responsibility for.
Some of these are complex, because you need participation from the provincial governments. That's why we have tax disputes in New Brunswick and elsewhere in the country, because these are not statutorily based. They're program-based. It isn't the same as jurisdiction.
What I propose is a jurisdictional way forward as opposed to a program. Even resource revenue sharing isn't the same, because you can't go to the bank with that. Ernie can't go to the international bond market and say, “I've got resource revenue sharing”. That could change, as we've witnessed in New Brunswick.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Now, to follow up, if you were going to give individual chiefs and councils the powers to determine what they were going to tax.... You mentioned fuel tax. Just this morning I brought one of my kids over to Fort William First Nation where there's a hockey rink where he plays hockey. Everyone in Thunder Bay gases up there because of the tax advantage and not having to pay tax when you're on first nations' land.
I certainly think that part of the economic advantage some first nation communities currently enjoy is because of having to pay lower rates of tax. Wouldn't that potentially undermine that economic advantage?
Clarence T. (Manny) Jules
What we've done here in Kamloops is we occupy what we call the “fat tax”—fuel, alcohol and tobacco. That is paid by individual community members, but also the broader society as well. We generate over a million dollars a year as a result of that revenue. We're able to use that to protect our title interests both on and off reserve. It allows us to invest money into education, infrastructure and the like.
These are complex questions that individual communities have to address. My view is if the jurisdiction is in the community, then you get rid of the loopholes as individuals would see it.
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau
Thank you very much, Mr. Schmale, for filling the void. I don't know what happened, but my connection dropped. I do appreciate it.
I understand that Mr. Powlowski has had his five minutes.
I want to thank all of our witnesses today. We have basically fully used that time, and it has been fascinating—
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC
I think Mr. Schmale was going to jump in at the same time. No matter, I just wanted to tell you, Mr. Chair, that we still had two turns left.
February 4th, 2022 / 2:35 p.m.
Liberal