Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 24th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Good afternoon, everyone.

Welcome to the 35th meeting of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs. We are gathered here today on the unceded territory of the Algonquin/Anishnaabe nation.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses who have joined us for this study on Bill C-29. In person we have Karen Restoule, founder of Bold Realities; Karla Buffalo, CEO of the Athabasca Tribal Council; and Chief Commissioner Clarence Manny Jules, First Nations Tax Commission.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I'd like to outline a few rules to follow. Members or witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services in English, French and Inuktitut are available for today's meeting. Please be patient with the interpretation. There could be a delay, especially since the Inuktitut has to be translated into English first before it can be translated into French, and vice versa.

For those on video conference, the interpretation button is found at the bottom of your screen—the little globe—and you can listen in English, French or Inuktitut. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately. We will ensure that it's restored before we resume.

The “raise hand” feature at the bottom of the screen can also be used at any time if you wish to speak or to alert the chair. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Vanessa Davies]

Excuse me, Mr. Chair, but Mrs. Gill has a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Okay.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd just like to know if the sound checks were done before the meeting started.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Yes, they were.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you.

Is that the case for all the witnesses?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

The tests were done for the witnesses with us during the first hour of the meeting.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. This is a reminder that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Each organization this morning will be invited to make a five-minute opening statement. That will be followed by questions from the members.

I'd now like to get this under way by inviting Ms. Restoule to begin with her statement.

Ms. Restoule, you have five minutes.

[Karen Restoule, Founder, BOLD Realities]

Aaniin. Bonjour. Hello.

My name is Karen Restoule. I am from Dokis First Nation, with relations in Nipissing and Temagami first nations, and I am honoured to have been invited here today to share insights on Bill C-29.

In addition to recognizing each member of the committee here, I wish to recognize those who led the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission: the commissioners, the secretariat and everyone who experienced residential schools, including, most importantly, the survivors who had the courage to live through these experiences as well as share with the TRC and Canadians their truths. I hold my hands up to each of you.

Also, I wish to recognize every Canadian who, whether employed by the state or by the church, was involved in the implementation of the federal residential school policy and mandate. It was a dark moment for all.

Today we all find ourselves at this moment in time where we are learning about the truths and, most importantly, positioning ourselves to ensure that focused and concrete results-based action is taken to correct the legacy of this horrible policy, with the goal of securing a better future for indigenous peoples and a better future for Canada.

Let us stay focused on this great responsibility.

Entities and governments do not need oversight, but good governance requires it. Oversight refers to actions taken to review, monitor and report on the activity of entities to ensure that they are achieving results, ensuring good value for money. Good governance is also supported by the principles of legitimacy, accountability and transparency, which serve to build and maintain trust between citizens and public institutions.

In Canada, the legitimacy of institutions is embodied in law. Advancement on call to action 53 to enact legislation to establish a national council for reconciliation is welcomed.

It is recommended that the bill reflect the purpose and intent set out in call to action 53, which sets out clearly that the council be “an independent, national, oversight body”. Indian residential schools and other policies were implemented throughout the 19th and 20th centuries with defined purpose, great rigour and ample funding. The same or a greater degree of focus, robustness and resources must be used to correct the course.

It is recommended that the words “efforts for” be struck from clause 6. The purpose of the council should be to advance reconciliation with indigenous peoples, full stop.

In carrying out that purpose, it is recommended that the functions listed in clause 7 be revised to ensure that the council is also tasked with reporting on how reconciliation is being advanced in a tangible, measurable way with real results.

In May of this year, we learned through a report requested by this very committee that monies being spent by the two indigenous affairs departments on advancing reconciliation have not resulted in commensurate improvement in their ability to achieve the goals that they had set for themselves, and that their ability to achieve specified targets has declined. It seemed that the departments would benefit from this council and the oversight.

It is recommended that clause 10 include nominations of representatives from each of the following: the National Indigenous Economic Development Board, the First Nations Financial Management Board, the Indigenous Bar Association and the National Association of Friendship Centres. Monitoring and reporting on tangible advancement should be supported by leadership that is experienced in leading for results. There are many established indigenous leaders who have, in the course of their careers in business and finance, both on and off reserve, delivered real results.

Finally, it's recommended that subclause 17(3) of the bill respect call to action 56, which calls for “the prime minister of Canada to formally respond to the report of the National Council for Reconciliation”. Where other entities established through federal legislation would, in normal course, be required to be accountable for their decisions and actions to Parliament through a responsible minister, the unique and unprecedented nature of this legislation necessitates a response from the Prime Minister of Canada.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Ms. Restoule.

We'll now go to Ms. Buffalo.

Ms. Buffalo, you have five minutes.

[Karla Buffalo, Chief Executive Officer, Athabasca Tribal Council]

Tânisi, etlanite, good morning, everybody. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today.

My name is Karla Buffalo, and I'm the CEO of the Athabasca Tribal Council in Fort McMurray Wood Buffalo, Alberta. The Athabasca Tribal Council serves five first nations—the Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation, the Fort McKay First Nation, the Mikisew Cree First Nation, the Fort McMurray 468 First Nation and the Chipewyan Prairie First Nation—by providing relevant and innovative services and supports that enrich the well-being and health and prosperity of its people.

We believe strongly in the need for authentic and action-oriented reconciliation. In our traditional territory in Treaty No. 8, the first nations are leaders in the advancement of economic reconciliation at a remarkable pace. Our focus is not just on fiscal sovereignty, but also on cultural revitalization and fostering strong and thriving communities and indigenous peoples. We are here to encourage a collaborative process with all nations, while respecting their individual sovereignty and self-governance.

The establishment of the national council is an opportunity to help further meaningful reconciliation and to give accountability to progress being made on the TRC's calls to action that have yet to be implemented by Canada. It is important that any new structure established by the federal government be indigenous-led and have indigenous laws and legal systems in its creation.

ATC supports the establishment of a national council for the purpose of advancing reconciliation with indigenous peoples. However, as it stands now, ATC has some serious concerns about the bill, such as under-representation of indigenous people in the committee structure. Additionally, the representation needs to be balanced in gender and ages, including a balance between youth and elder voices.

Bill C-29 does not include any measurable outcomes or targets, and no formal structure is given regarding metrics set out to the committee. We believe it's crucial that the proposed legislation include processes to measure outcomes.

The current bill does not bind the federal government to provide funding to the national council, which is necessary to ensure that the national council has adequate resources to carry out its mandate.

The legislation, as it's written now regarding the disclosure of information, does not appear adequate to allow the national council to obtain necessary information that it will require in order to carry out its mandate.

Also, Bill C-29 lacks accountability measures by the Prime Minister and Canada to recognize and implement the national council's recommendations. The national council must be given the appropriate tools to hold this government accountable for the progress on reconciliation in all areas.

ATC recommends the following amendments to Bill C-29:

First, there need to be specific metrics outlined in the bill to give the national council structure and to measure its accountability. Measures and targets must encompass all areas from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action. This document is not a checklist to complete; it is a guide toward the long-lasting reconciliation to have indigenous people move forward from being an oppressed minority to having equal treaty and inherent rights as indigenous peoples of Canada.

Second is with regard to funding commitments on an ongoing basis. The Government of Canada announced in its 2019 budget that a total of $126.5 million would be allocated to support the establishment of the national council for reconciliation, including $1.5 million to support the first year of the council's operations. However, there are no funding commitments in the proposed legislation, and it is unclear how the national council will be funded on an ongoing basis.

Research and reporting requirements of the national council are very extensive. In order to carry out its mandate, the national council will need to hire a large staff, including investigators. A funding commitment in the proposed legislation must be included to ensure adequate funding to support the national council's operations.

Third, how the council will be able to access the necessary information to carry out its mandate should be clearly indicated. Bill C-29 should also be amended to give the national council the power to subpoena, in order to ensure that the national council has the ability to obtain all necessary information.

Fourth, the council would benefit from an independent process in appointing the initial board of directors, allowing a more transparent and less politicized processes. Having an open and transparent process that honours indigenous forms of governance is necessary for the council to have relevance for all communities.

Fifth is to increase the accountability required of the federal government. The federal government must take the steps necessary to ensure the recommendations of the national council are implemented. While ATC supports the passing of Bill C-29 to support reconciliation efforts, it is important that the values in reconciliation be upheld by having an appropriate structure and accountability measures in place.

If the goals of the national council are to monitor, evaluate, conduct research, and report on progress being made in all sectors of Canadian society and by all governments in Canada, it is imperative that the national council have the appropriate tools to carry out this mandate in a meaningful way.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to you all today.

Marsi cho. Hay hay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Buffalo.

We'll now go to Chief Commissioner Manny Jules for five minutes.

[Clarence T., Manny) Jules (Chief Commissioner, First Nations Tax Commission]

Good morning. I am Manny Jules, chief commissioner of the first nations tax commission. I am speaking to you from the former Kamloops Indian Residential School on my reserve in Kamloops. Thank you for the opportunity to appear as a witness before this committee as part of your examination of Bill C-29, the national council for reconciliation act.

With regard to one of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action, I am pleased to see the government's decision to enact legislation to make the creation of the national council a reality. The establishment of a permanent, non-political, indigenous-led organization to advance reconciliation with indigenous people is something all Canadians can and should support.

There is much work to be done with respect to reconciliation in Canada. I know that in my own community, we are still trying to come to grips with the discovery of graves of children who attended the Kamloops Residential School. That was almost 18 months ago, and the feeling of shock, pain, anger and sadness has not subsided. I attended the Kamloops Indian Residential School as a day scholar. My father attended the school until grade 9. My mother attended the school until grade 3.

Over the last three years, the First Nations Tax Commission undertook a research study about Canada's colonial policies from 1867 until 1927, leading to the prohibition of our power to collect taksis. We recently made a 15-minute film about this research. I will provide this to this committee. I believe it will help you understand who is truly to blame. I believe it will help you understand how residential schools were part of the government-led strategy to take away our children and destroy our governments, culture, jurisdictions and fiscal powers. I believe it will help you understand why there can be no real reconciliation without economic reconciliation.

When I say economic reconciliation, I am talking about two fundamental components. One is that first nation governments must have jurisdictions and unassailable revenue authorities that help fund the exercise of those jurisdictions. The second is that first nations need to implement their jurisdiction and fiscal powers in a way that attracts investment from their members, and others, to participate in the economy on equal terms with everyone else.

I have devoted most of my life to achieving economic reconciliation. Over the years, I have appeared many times before parliamentary committees to make proposals for economic reconciliation with first nations. With the support of Parliament, we have changed legislation to accommodate our property, local and sales tax jurisdictions in Canada. We have created a first nations national institutional model that enables interested first nations to implement their jurisdictions. As I said earlier, I believe first nation reconciliation must include economic reconciliation.

The First Nations Fiscal Management Act institutions have been doing this successfully for almost 20 years. For this reason, I recommend that Bill C-29 be amended so that the council's first board of directors also includes a member of the First Nations Fiscal Management Act institutions to ensure economic reconciliation is addressed as a foundation for reconciliation. This is a significant gap, and I believe it must be addressed now, not five years from now.

I look forward to working with this committee in the future on many more first nation-led innovations that will provide Canada with what it needs right now: hope and inspiration for a brighter future for all.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Chief Commissioner.

We'll now go to the first round of questions, beginning with Mr. Vidal.

Mr. Vidal, you have six minutes.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all of our witnesses today. Your testimony has been absolutely tremendous. I really appreciate your taking the time and investing in this important piece of legislation.

For my first question, I'm going to start with Ms. Restoule, but I want the other witnesses to please listen to my question, because I want to follow up with each of you on the same question, so just be aware.

Ms. Restoule, in June of 2021, you wrote an article entitled “Empowering Indigenous entrepreneurs offers [a] new way forward”. In that article, you talked about a few things. You talked about the size and expected growth of the indigenous economy. You talked about indigenous entrepreneurship and how your own family's personal history of resilience and perseverance allowed you to push through and work around the Indian Act to prioritize your own economy.

I want to be clear: This was framed in the context of the very fresh and recent discovery at the site of the Kamloops Indian Residential School. There are a couple of quotes you offered in that article that I want to set this up with:

And while Indigenous peoples continue the work to heal, we continue to trust that the path forward is one that moves us towards prosperity through full economic participation and self-determination.

In the discussion or concept of economic reconciliation, if it is integral to success as we move forward to true self-determination and away from the Indian Act...a couple of you have already referred to this, but I want you to speak again about the importance of having representation on the national council from organizations or individuals that would focus on the interest of economic reconciliation.

If each of you could take about a minute and a half to speak to that, that's going to pretty much kill my six minutes.

[Karen Restoule]

All right. I'm keen to hear from the others, so I'll stick to my 90 seconds.

Thank you for recognizing that piece. I wrote it from the heart. It was my first piece for The Hub Canada, and I'm encouraging everyone to check it out.

At the core of who we are as a people—and I speak on behalf of myself and those who have come before me in Dokis and Nipissing areas—is that we are by nature hustlers, entrepreneurial people. This idea that Disney has created that we are all just frolicking on the pine trails of the forests is bizarre to me.

I come from, as the kids say, a super hard-core family, where we set goals for ourselves and we deliver on them. Whether that's in the context of business, in law or in governance, we're always striving towards higher standards and higher goals and a vision setting out how to accomplish that.

If I can, I'll note that in the TRC calls to action there are some qualifiers there as to what we should be measuring in terms of pursuing real results. I think that hits to the core of not just indigenous people but Canadians. Adequate funding and support for education, child welfare programs and health investments is at the core of how we are going to be able to succeed to achieve what I've just referenced here in terms of robust challenges and objectives for ourselves.

I think it might be worth the committee's and the drafters' while to strengthen the language in the bill to focus on one that achieves real results to ensure we're constantly moving towards larger and bigger goals and repositioning ourselves here for the betterment of indigenous nations peoples but more importantly for Canada.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

If I could move right on to Ms. Buffalo, you may want to respond to that same question as well.

[Karla Buffalo]

Thank you for the question.

I think it's really thought-provoking and relevant to our area in the Fort McMurray, Wood Buffalo and Treaty 8 territory.

I think about the first nations that we serve in the Athabasca Tribal Council, which are situated in the heart of oil sands. Our first nation communities have worked hard on building partnerships and establishing long-term agreements for the purpose of highly engaging in economic reconciliation, but the actual act of economic reconciliation really allows first nations to generate funds that put them in the position of creating their own indigenous law practice, legislation and policies to govern their communities. That is really at the heart of economic reconciliation. Some of the chiefs I have worked for over the last number of years have said that it's this ability to have the funding to drive the direction that a community wants to go to serve its people, under its own policy and legislation, as opposed to being dictated to about how funding needs to be spent on their people based on other people's priorities and direction. That shift is what I'm really seeing in our territory today.

We have Fort McKay First Nation, which is currently working on changing its land code. They have been investing their profits back into their communities in a way that makes sense in terms of developing policy and legislation around how they want to govern they communities, as I've seen in all of our first nations.

Economic reconciliation cannot be done alone, without cultural revitalization. Our first nations have really been focusing on that priority. As funds are being generated and their partnerships are being established with industry and government, they are also focusing on the economic reconciliation. It is those two pieces that need to come together—under the direction and guidance of our leadership—that really makes reconciliation—

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Buffalo. That's the time.

Now we go to Mrs. Atwin for six minutes.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for your testimony today.

I'm going to come back to some of the things that Ms. Karla Buffalo mentioned, in particular, around the need for accountability and transparency—I'm very much supportive of that key piece—and the tools and resources.

I just want to mention that there was a commitment of $126.5 million allocated for this work in the 2019 budget, so I want to reassure you that it's critical that those resources are there. That's certainly the position of government as well.

You did mention a piece about specific metrics for outcomes or the structure. My understanding of this legislation is that it's really setting the stage for the independence and the arms-length nature of the council.

I'm wondering if you could comment a little bit on just how important it is that the council be independent and can determine those processes for themselves.

[Karla Buffalo]

Was that question meant for me?

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Yes.

[Karla Buffalo]

I really do think that part of what's critical is measurement of outcomes, but it's the measurement of outcomes that are important to establishing the quality of life of indigenous people, not just metrics that have been established by the Government of Canada or other institutions.

I think about some of those metrics we've heard over time where it talked about the measurement of the number of children in care compared to non-indigenous people; comparative funding for education both on and off reserve; educational and income attainments of indigenous people compared to non-indigenous people; progress in closing gaps between indigenous and non-indigenous communities; health indicators such as infant mortality, suicide, mental health, addictions and life expectancy; and progress on reducing the overrepresentation of people in justice and correctional systems.

I also think about what it really means to indigenous people who are in our communities in terms of what reconciliation means. I think it's about having a high quality of life so that they feel confident, happy and proud of being indigenous. It's where our youth and community members know and practise their culture and they're able to speak their indigenous languages that had been taken away from them.

All of those metrics really transfer into what it means to be a proud and confident indigenous person, and what supports and pieces are in play to ensure that those changes are happening over the generations to reconcile the impacts of residential school and colonization.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you.

I'll go to Ms. Restoule.

You brought up some very important amendments. The great testimony today is very helpful for our work on committee.

As a woman, I'm wondering in general how critical it is to centre women's voices in this process of reconciliation and have their guidance and leadership. I'm wondering if you could comment.

[Karen Restoule]

Again, writ large—and speaking on behalf of myself, my experience and where I come from—what we're seeing across the country is the shift in responsibility being re-established with indigenous women. We are really leading the way on that front.

It's not so much a power dynamic as it is a responsibility to honour the roles we play at home in raising those next generations. Federal policy has impacted and impeded our ability to do that over the course of time, but these were practices exercised day to day in our daily lives, family units and communities. Achieving real results is something that has come naturally to indigenous women across the country, if I can generalize. Certainly I see indigenous women and girls honouring that responsibility in the present and in the time to come.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much.

Finally, Mr. Jules, I have a comment on economic reconciliation specifically.

There are a lot of references being made, often, to oil and gas extraction in particular. I'm wondering if you could comment on the idea that economic reconciliation should be built on sovereignty and choice. I'm wondering if you can expand on that a bit.