Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 28th, 2022

[Karen Hogan]

Absolutely, that's a good place to begin. To know what they believe they need where they can't, perhaps, adequately respond to an emergency is the best place to start to help fill in the gaps, because the response should be led by them first and then complemented by either provinces or territories or third parties when the need is much greater than their capacity.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you.

The other piece, again, is that capacity piece, identifying the needs and recommending a good path forward for building that capacity. In your opinion, what would that look like? Are we building a database? What kind of process could be expected as far as shoring up better capacity building in communities?

[Karen Hogan]

Well, it would start with a few things. We found in our audit that the department had provided funding for about 190 full-time and part-time emergency management coordinators, so having someone whose job it is to just think about emergency preparedness is a great place to start. What we found is that Indigenous Services Canada didn't know how much more capacity was needed, so it wasn't aware of which communities were still missing that coordination role, which is a key one.

The department also didn't know how many communities didn't have emergency management plans. It didn't believe that it was its responsibility to follow up to make sure each community had one. However, I would say that starts with understanding where the gaps are.

Really, those are two key elements in those beginning steps of making sure everyone is adequately prepared for the disasters we face.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much.

For my last question.... We heard a lot about evacuations in communities throughout our study. You mentioned that communities should have a reasonable expectation with regard to emergency situations and what to expect. Could you speak specifically about evacuations? We didn't get a lot of detail from communities about how those rolled out. Can you identify any glaring issue in the evacuations process in particular?

[Karen Hogan]

In order to maximize your time, I'm going to ask Glenn Wheeler to jump in to give you some examples.

[Glenn Wheeler]

Mr. Chair, it's a very good question. We noted that overall the department had not established service standards when it came to evacuations: What should folks be expecting when they're being evacuated from communities? For the most part, they didn't monitor how well evacuations were done.

I would point out, though, that to the department's credit there was one area in Ontario where they did establish mutually agreed upon evacuation service standards with service providers. There is a very detailed document that sets out expectations for safety, for health care and for education for children if they're pulled out during the school year. That particular document sets out very clearly what first nations can expect when they are evacuated. The issue was that we found that in only one of the seven regions that ISC has. If the department could replicate that in other regions, that certainly would be a good step forward.

After evacuations, they sometimes also do lessons learned exercises. We found that something like 14 or 17 of those were done. There were some recommendations that came out of those lessons learned exercises with respect to evacuations, but what we didn't see was the department taking those recommendations or those lessons learned and then improving on future evacuations or improving services for future evacuations. There's some potential that the department didn't follow through on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Atwin.

We'll now start a third round, with Mr. Melillo, for five minutes.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today and for your important work on this report.

Since this report has been released, I've heard from a number of communities in my riding. I come from Kenora, in northwestern Ontario, which includes 42 first nations and a number of communities that believe they have projects that are included in the 112 that are sitting on Indigenous Services desks and waiting to be approved.

There are a number of projects, of course, not just for mitigation necessarily, but also for making sure it's easier for communities to evacuate if that happens. One that comes to mind is the Berens River bridge project in Pikangikum. It's also known as “the road south”. It's only a 15-kilometre stretch, and it would connect the remote nation of Pikangikum to the provincial road network.

I raise that just as an example of a very simple, relatively small project that would make a world of difference for a community in remote northern Ontario, one like Pikangikum, which had to evacuate three times between 2019 and 2021.

To that end, I would like to ask you—we have talked a bit about this already—what are the calculations or the cost estimates for that one and for those 112 projects? How much would it cost if the government were to be more proactive in getting out in front of that?

[Karen Hogan]

That's a great question, which we actually asked the department when we were doing the audit. I would point you to paragraph 8.35 of our report, which notes that the 112 projects currently have a cost estimate of about $291 million.

What I would highlight is that many of the projects on that list had no cost associated with them yet. That assessment hadn't been done. I would also highlight that there are projects that have been put forward that haven't been reviewed yet or identified, so that is really the beginning of the dollar amounts.

I would also point you to perhaps the committee hearing last Friday at the public accounts committee, where officials from Indigenous Services Canada provided some updates. We did not look at those updates on the cost estimates, but they provided some updates, if you're interested in looking at the dollar values in more detail.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I appreciate that. I understand that it's a bit of a moving target, but we'll say a few hundred million dollars, or maybe a little more to start. As well, in the report, it's reported that something like over $800 million was spent over the last four years on emergency response. Is that right?

[Karen Hogan]

Yes. The government spent approximately $828 million over the last four years, the majority of which was spent on responding to emergencies, so three and a half times more than on preparing and mitigating for them.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Three and a half times more: To me, that's a striking number. We're spending over $800 million on emergency management. That's three and a half times more on the response than on projects like the Berens River bridge, which could help mitigate the impacts and help ensure that communities are better suited moving forward.

Another aspect of that is the fact that if first nations have to evacuate, as I understand it, they do get support from the province, of course, and from the federal government, but they also have to pay a portion of that evacuation cost. It creates quite a cost for the community as well. I'm wondering if, through your work, you've had any estimates or any indication of how much that might cost individual first nations.

[Karen Hogan]

I'm going to ask Mr. Wheeler to answer that for you.

[Glenn Wheeler]

Mr. Chair, that was one of the things we did not look at in conducting this audit. There were so many issues that were identified in 2013 and issues that we continued to see as we did this audit work that we didn't go down that road.

Having said that, with the way the emergency management assistance program is set up, first nations can submit invoices for expenses they've incurred. I wouldn't be able to say whether those invoices were paid in a timely manner, or whether all costs were covered.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I appreciate that. Thank you. I may have time for one more question.

You talked quite a bit about the envelope of Indigenous Services funding and all of the silos within it. That leads me to the conclusion that Indigenous Services is far too prescriptive and dictating far too much about where the funding should go, instead of being responsive and listening to first nations on the ground and the indigenous communities across the country. It should be ensuring that its funding is reaching those it needs to reach. It's the cookie-cutter approach versus the approach of responding to individual communities.

I'm curious to get your thoughts on that. Is this funding structure creating some long-term dependence on the government, because of its inability to fund projects properly?

[Karen Hogan]

I would have two reactions to that. I talked about the larger, broader envelope. We've been able to most recently look at safe drinking water—that's how we know that's a big bucket of infrastructure money—and then divide it among programs within the department. That may be a way to tackle it.

I know, in talking with the deputy minister, that they are sitting down with communities and trying to understand by community what their priorities are and then directing them to the right program to apply for funding. That's where I would challenge that a different way forward might be more responsive to the unique needs of every community, but that is one that the department would have to study, and it would have to be prepared to dramatically change the way it approaches funding structural projects.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Melillo.

We will now go to Mr. McLeod for five minutes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for presenting today. I really appreciate this level of discussion.

I come from the Northwest Territories. We've certainly started to see more than our share of communities being put in emergency situations. We're starting to see more and more communities flooded and more and more communities threatened by fire. I see the sense to be prepared of communities that are in harm's way and that have historically been in flood zones and threatened by floods, and communities in areas where there are high fire rates. Every community should have an emergency response plan. Most of them do in the Northwest Territories.

As there are more emergencies, there are fewer resources to respond when it comes to evacuations. I watched when my small home community had to accommodate a community that was totally wiped out by a flood. A couple of days later, a second flood hit another community, so we had two communities trying to come into a small community, and people weren't ready to accommodate them.

I want you to talk a bit about how important it is—if you look at it in your study, I think you referenced it—for communities to be able to respond to receiving people who have been evacuated, sometimes with very few clothes and blankets, and little food, so that no one seems to be scrambling.

[Karen Hogan]

Mr. Chair, if you will allow me, I will start, and then I might turn to Glenn to see if he would like to add some more details.

What we saw during our audit was that Indigenous Services Canada had not assessed the capacity of host communities to be able to support communities that needed to be evacuated. As you mentioned, that is a big element of being prepared and ensuring that the response meets the needs of communities.

I don't know, Glenn, if you want to add something to that.

[Glenn Wheeler]

I might add, Mr. Chair, that it points to the importance, from our point of view, of there being emergency management services agreements among the federal government, ISC, and the provinces and territories, so that roles and responsibilities are clear and that when an emergency happens, there's clarity and certainty about who's responsible for what, whether it's providing blankets or...how many people are evacuated from one community to another. When you don't have those agreements in place, there's a heightened risk that there will be negative outcomes.

In our report, we recommend that ISC sign agreements—negotiate agreements with those provinces that have not yet signed agreements—so the exact situation you described does not happen.

As the legislative auditor for the territories, I might also add that we audited municipal and community affairs in 2016 in the Northwest Territories and highlighted some of the very issues you're raising. We looked at emergency management planning and fire protection. The points you're raising were issues in 2016, and I imagine they remain so today.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I think I'm splitting my time with Marcus.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

We have a separate slot for him. If you want to continue—

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Okay. I have another question.

I liked the reference you made about communities being able to stay on the land. You talked a bit about how that worked during COVID.

I watched with interest when there was a fire heading in the direction of one of my communities, one that's 100% indigenous. They wanted to move them to a neighbouring community and put them in hotels. The elders and chiefs said, “No, we don't want to go to a hotel.” Historically, when a fire came to their camps or communities, they moved out of the way. They just wanted some help to get a place set up a little out of the fire's way—out of harm's way. They were perfectly happy there.

When COVID hit, we saw a lot of similarities. People wanted to be out on the land rather than in a different community or a place where they weren't comfortable.

Could you talk a bit about the benefit of that?

[Karen Hogan]

Absolutely.

You referenced how community members are the ones who best understand their community and land, and who know where to go. We raised a case study about Kashechewan in northern Ontario. That was a response the community asked for, and the federal government supported them in doing it. Staying on their land was so much better. They moved to higher hunting grounds during the flood.

It's hard to find a sustainable solution. It speaks to the need for having first nations communities at the table in order to figure out the best responses to emergencies. They are the ones who best know what their communities need.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. McLeod.

We'll now go to Madame Gill.

Go ahead for two and a half minutes.