Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 6th, 2023

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I'm giving it to you, and for further details…

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I'm not trying to stir up trouble; I just want a number.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Please, let's not get into an argument. I have something to say briefly.

Bill C‑11 provides opportunities for indigenous people, through indigenous languages programming that reflects indigenous cultures and will enable our indigenous communities to receive more money for culture.

Bill C‑18 will provide them with more money for journalism.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I am asking you to give us a specific number of employees, Minister.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I will now ask Mr. Pelletier to provide a more specific answer to your question.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you.

[Paul Pelletier]

Thank you for the question.

I would say there are a few reasons to offer. One is that every single year for the last five years, we've seen increasing demand for the program. Funding has increased year over year, but demand has exceeded that. What happens is that we are oversubscribed, and many projects are not able to be funded every year.

In terms of your question about whether there have been more resources, we did receive an increase in money in budget 2021 to support more projects, and we received some extra human resources to process that.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Pelletier. Thank you, Minister.

If you have those numbers, you could send them to the committee.

I mentioned some of the problems. We've been told that it's hard for people who want to make requests to have direct contact. Of course the matter of human resources is important, as are the delays. People told us that they had tried to get in touch with someone, but that it was impossible. It took far too long. In some instances, it was up to 11 months or even a year. That's a problematic situation.

There is also the whole issue of resources. I know that the will is there. Things improved from 180 projects to approximately 1,000. That covers all the Inuit and Métis projects. Nevertheless, people are talking about the situation, including the communities themselves, which were making requests through organizations. They don't have the resources that a very large band council would have, for example. I have even seen disparities on the North Shore, where I come from. These people need more than resources, and that's the reason for the question. I thought to myself that might be one of the first things to take into consideration if we want to give people access to the available funds.

I'd like to raise a completely different subject with you, Minister, about dormant languages.

I am aware of Huron-Wendat, a language which is not being spoken. I know that we're going to return to the review of the Indigenous Languages Act, but would nevertheless like to know how, in Bill C‑91 or in the indigenous languages and cultures program, the issue of research or revitalization will be dealt with. That's really pushing it, given that this language is not even being spoken. Several activities will be funded to get people together so that they can talk about it. But in some communities, people are no longer speaking their language, even though they want to reclaim it.

How will things proceed? What will be the minister's responsibilities? We have seen interest and determination from the commissioner, but we know that it will require effort over the long term, as well as enormous resources. I've discussed it with him. However, it would appear that there are only three people at the Office of the Commissioner of Indigenous Languages at the moment. Clearly, between now and full implementation, all of the emphasis will be on the department itself.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

The commissioner's role is performed independently. The commissioner's work is carried out independently of project funding. The two are not connected. I know that the commissioner is doing everything possible. He is a remarkable man for whom I have an enormous amount of admiration and respect.

During this time—as you yourself pointed out—project funding has been increased. I'm somewhat surprised to hear that there have been so many. Generally speaking, we have been succeeding in reaching out to a lot of people. We'll be only too happy to take down names and see what we can do for them.

You're right. You've put your finger on something. We're saying that we're going to increase the number of people who speak the language. In some instances, the current number is zero, while for others, there are only three or four speakers remaining. This is not specific to Quebec. I've seen it everywhere, in Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia.

The Department of Canadian Heritage is not about to dictate how they ought to go about revitalizing their languages. It's up to them to figure it out. What we need to do is give them financial support through training, pedagogical assistance, and creating dictionaries and resources to help them learn how to pronounce the words.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

There's also the research component. I know that's not the responsibility of your department, but rather Mr. Champagne's.

At the moment, some researchers have been unable to qualify for research projects at the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, the SSHRC. I wanted to inform you of that.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

The commissioner's office is also going to do a lot of research into the status of languages across Canada.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

It's Ms. Idlout's turn now.

Ms. Idlout, You have the floor for six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

Today, as we talk about indigenous languages, I am going to speak Inuktitut, my language.

We all understand and know that the people who were sent to residential schools have a lot of pain and have a lot of healing to do.

There are 13 communities in Nunavut. Their schools were managed by the federal government, which hired churches and other agencies to manage them. In Chesterfield Inlet, since 1951, it was the Sir Joseph Bernier Federal Day School. It was the last, and the residence itself, Kivalliq Hall, was closed in 1997 as the last residential school in Nunavut.

In Nunavut, there are 13 communities. They tried to do away with our culture and our language by taking us to residential schools from 1951 to 1997. For 46 years they tried to destroy our language and our culture.

There are 42 schools in Nunavut, from preschool to grade 12. The elementary schools teach the English language. We have one French school in Nunavut, but we do not have an Inuktitut school up to grade 12. We do not have an Inuktitut curriculum or courses up to grade 12.

I am asking you, Canada, can the Government of Canada provide for 13 communities to teach the Inuktitut language inside of Nunavut? We feel that you could also teach the language and the culture of the Inuit. For 46 years, they tried to do away with our language and culture. Can you reply, please?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you for the question.

What was done to indigenous peoples, including the Inuit, was horrible. People were uprooted and prevented from speaking their own language.

As I was saying earlier, language is how we express what we basically are; it's our identity. It's our way of transmitting our history to our children. When children lose their language and can no longer communicate with their parents and grandparents, they lose some of their identity. Something inside them has been broken.

I myself worked for a long time in international development around the world, and I always said that change and progress come through education.

All the departments have a role to play in this, and it varies from one to the other. What our department does is provide kindergarten to grade 12 classrooms with educational materials like dictionaries and software to help with word pronunciation.

Other departments work more closely with the provinces and territories on other aspects.

In fact I'm going to ask Mr. Pelletier to provide more details on this.

[Paul Pelletier]

In the north, our program, as the minister said, supports books, pedagogical resources and the development of indigenous language training materials, as well as adult courses and preschool language nests for children and their parents.

We have also entered into a tripartite agreement with the Government of Nunavut and Nunavut Tunngavik Inc. It is a five-year commitment whereby we are supporting an increase in the number of Inuktitut-speaking Inuit educators in the Nunavut education system. It's one of the ways in which we are testing what can be done under the act to better support education in the language of Inuit children.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you.

What I heard was piecemeal—pieces of small projects here and there, but I asked this quite specifically: Will Canada build and staff 13 Inuktitut schools in Nunavut, or pay a third party, the territorial public government, to restore and support Inuit culture and language for the next 46 years, given that in the past the federal government paid for residential schools to exist for 46 years in Nunavut?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I'm personally in favour of that, but it's not part of my department's mandate. I don't want to speak for my colleague.

As I said earlier, progress comes through education. If we want to set things right and correct the horrendous injustices committed, then children, your children, have to be able to learn their own language.

Collaboration is important. Agreements are also essential. As it happens, we have already signed eight education agreements with provincial and territorial governments.

I think that you should have this conversation with the Infrastructure Minister or the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, because that's their area of responsibility. I can't speak for them, but as far as we are concerned, we will certainly continue to provide all the required pedagogical materials.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

We are now beginning the second round of questions.

Mr. Schmale, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

That's perfect. Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here for this important discussion we're having today regarding indigenous languages and culture.

Minister, I'm going to point out a headline from the Hill Times that is dated June 6: “Online streaming bill risks pushing out Indigenous voices, says APTN”, the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network. According to the article, members from the APTN were not at the table when discussions were taking place regarding this online content bill.

Given the fact that, according to the National Post in this article, you are rejecting the Senate's amendments to Bill C-11, including this clause in the bill that one senator described as giving “extraordinary new powers to the government to make political decisions about things”, what guarantee can you give this committee and the indigenous community in general that their content will be able to be seen online and not regulated by the CRTC?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

That's a very important question. It's important to mention that we've been working with indigenous partners such as APTN. We've been consulting with them. We're looking at different measures, but one thing is sure, which is that after Bill C-11, there will be more money for indigenous voices. That is clear in terms of music, film and movies. The bill is there for that, actually. We're asking the streamers, the big players that we all love—I have them at home: Disney, Netflix and Prime—to contribute to Canadian culture so we can use that money to support different voices, like indigenous voices. There will be more money for them.

As for the amendments, to answer your question, I'm not going to reject any amendments that have an impact, but we'll see which ones may have a negative impact on the bill. I want to thank the senators, because they did important work on this. I'm sure we'll be able to support a lot of them, but we're not there yet.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

There was a National Post headline: “Liberals 'won't accept' any Senate amendments that 'impact' online streaming bill: heritage minister”. That was on February 2.

We still have an issue regarding online streamers, about those who are creating content in their communities—local content, Canadian content—who want to have their voices heard. Many people in testimony before the heritage committee—and I'm sure you and your team have followed that—have raised concerns about voices being able to break through the government barriers.

Again, most streamers aren't asking for money. Most streamers are saying, “We can do the job. Just get out of the way.” Are you going to change your mind and start accepting some of these Senate amendments that appear to improve this absolutely terrible bill?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Well, I have to say I think it's a very good bill. Actually, the world is watching Canada. I'm having conversations with counterparts in Europe and Australia who may follow the same path, because it's about our culture. Our culture is also who we are as a society.

We don't yet know which amendments we'll accept. I'm sure we're going to accept a lot of them. They were well thought out, and there was a lot of work. I had a chance to appear at the committee and I know our colleagues in the Senate did a very good job, but sometimes an amendment may go against the intentions of the bill. If that's the case, then we may not be able to support it. We'll see. We're not there yet, but—

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Okay. I appreciate it. I am short on time.

You are right that the world is watching, Minister. According to this National Post article,

The bill has also caught the attention of the United States. Its embassy in Ottawa recently said that it is holding consultations with U.S. companies that it is concerned could face discrimination if the bill passes.

In fact,

Last week, two U.S. senators called for a trade crackdown on Canada over Bill C-11....

So, yes, the world is watching, but is the government listening? There were legitimate concerns raised in committee by witnesses with impeccable backgrounds, who are saying that this is a step way too far.

Now, according to this article, you're saying that the government is not going to move on the Senate amendments after one of the longest studies in the Senate in recent memory.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

It is the longest study. There was a lot of filibustering by the Conservative Party. That's why.