Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 15th, 2023

[Cassidy Caron]

Sure. If I understood correctly, the question was simply about what more could be done to do better.

I think it comes down to simple investments in education for indigenous students and for Métis students.

We have always seen significant underfunding for Métis programs and services. There's been that jurisdictional hot potato between provincial governments and the federal government for so long with regard to who takes responsibility for the Métis.

In 2016, of course, there was the Supreme Court decision, the Daniels decision, and it was deemed that Métis people are the responsibility of the federal government. There has been significantly slow uptake in changing programs, services and investments for the Métis nation since 2016. Indigenous Services Canada still has a number of programs and services that leave out the Métis nation that were established before 2016, and they still carry on today. They are still labelled “indigenous programs”, but they are specifically first nations and Inuit. We see that all across the country now as it relates to education.

Investments in education, in Métis-specific programs and services that can support Métis students, are going to help. Ms. Gill, you spoke about some of those barriers that a lot of our people face. We need the recognition that children need safe homes to be able to then feel safe to go to school. Those socio-economic gaps that exist between the Métis nation and non-indigenous Canadians affect the educational outcomes for the Métis nation. Everything that we are doing to close socio-economic gaps is going to help the educational outcomes for Métis students.

We know that with the investment into education, we're investing in these children's futures. With more education, higher education, they can earn a higher income. That lowers crime rates and lowers the cost on the health care system. There are so many studies on investments in education paying off for the Canadian economy. With our large Métis population, I can only imagine how that translates. Investments in Métis education will only support this country.

[Natan Obed]

I'll focus exclusively on Inuktut in response to your question.

Anybody you interact with who is fluent in Inuktut and who does their work in Inuktut—just like Lori Idlout, who chooses to work in Inuktut in this committee—is an in-kind gift to the country. No formal education system has created an Inuktitut speaker in this country. Even though you have a jurisdiction like Nunavut, where there is an 85% majority of Inuit and the mother tongue of the jurisdiction is Inuktut, the education systems do not create grade-12-level Inuktut speakers. The community does that. The family does that.

It's the same thing in Nunavik; 99% of all Inuit from Nunavik speak Inuktitut as their mother tongue.

These are incredibly resilient languages, but you can see how difficult it would be to go to school in your second or third language and expect to just plow ahead as if that is normal, and also how difficult it would be to leave your mother tongue behind forcefully.

My sons went to Inuktitut day care. They went to the Inuktitut stream through grades K to four. Now they are in grades 10 and eight. Since grade four, they have not learned anything in our education system about Inuktitut. They have gone through remedial language arts classes that allow for them to still maintain a bit of their language. There isn't the educational pedagogy to graduate them as Inuktitut speakers.

This is one of the fundamental problems that we don't address. We tried to address it through the Indigenous Languages Act. We have tried to get Inuktut as an official language in Inuit Nunangat, but we have not been successful yet.

We need transformative change in relation to the recognition of Inuktut to be able to educate our children and to give them a chance to build upon their mother tongue to be successful in their educational journey.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

Ms. Idlout, you now have the floor for six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ ᐃᒃᓯᕙᐅᑖᖅ, ᐋᒻ, ᓯᕗᓪᓕᕐᒥ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐅᓂᒃᑳᕆᐊᖅᑐᖅᑐᑦ ᑐᓐᖓᓱᒃᑎᖃᑕᐅᕙᒃᑲ ᐃᓕᑕᕆᓪᓗᓯ ᖁᕕᐊᓇᖅᐳᖅ ᐋ, ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐅᓂᒃᑲᐅᑎᒋᔭᓯ ᐱᒻᒪᕆᐊᓘᒻᒪᑕ, ᐋ, ᑐᑭᓯᑎᑕᐅᒋᐊᖃᓪᓚᑦᑖᕋᑦᑕᐃᓛᒃ, ᐋ, ᖃᓪᓗᓈᑎᑐᑦ ᑕᐃᒪᓐᖓᓂᒃ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᖅᑐᖓ, ᐋ, ᓇᑖᓐᓱᕆᐊᒥ ᐅᖃᓪᓚᓵᖅᑐᖅ, ᐋ, ᐊᖏᕐᕋᕆᔭᑦᑎᓐᓂᒃ ᑭᓯᐊᓂ, ᐋ, ᐃᓄᒃᑑᖃᑦᑕᕋᒪ, ᐋ, ᑖᓐᓇ ᑎᒍᒥᐊᖏᓐᓇᕈᓐᓇᖅᑕᕋ, ᑭᓯᐊᓂ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᔪᖓ, ᐋ, ᖃᓪᓗᓈᑎᑐᑦ, ᐋ, ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᖅᓯᒪᐃᓐᓇᕋᒪ ᑕᐃᒪᓐᖓᓂᒃ ᐱᒋᐊᓕᓵᕐᓂᕐᒧᑦ ᖁᕝᕙᓯᓐᓂᓕᒻᒧᑦ 12 ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᒪᕐᕈᐊᖅᑎᖅᓱᖓ ᓯᓚᑦᑐᖅᓴᕐᕕᓐᓄᑦ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᖃᓪᓗᓈᑎᑐᑦ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᖏᓐ− ᓇᓚᐅᕋᒪ ᐃᓄᒃᑑᕋᒐᒪ ᑯᑦᑕᖓᖃᑦᑕᖅᑐᖓ ᐃᓄᒃᑑᕋᒐᒪ, ᐋ, ᐃᓛᓐᓂᒃᑯᑦ ᑕᒻᒪᖅᑕᖃᑦᑕᖅᑐᖓ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᑦᓯᐊᖅᑐᖓ. ᐃᓚᖏᑦ ᐊᒥᓱᐊᓗᐃᑦ ᐃᓄᐃᑦ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖏᑦ, ᐋ, ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕌᓂᒃᓯᒪᓐᖏᑕᒃᑲ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᔪᖓ ᑭᓯᐊᓂ ᑖᓐᓇ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐᓂᓕ− ᕆᓂᖅ ᖃᐅᔨᓴᕈᒪᓚᐅᖅᐸᕋ, ᐋᒻ, ᒪᒃᑯᑦᑐᖁᑎᖅᐳᑦ ᓯᕗᓂᒃᓴᒃᐳᑦ ᐅᕙᑦᑎᑐᑦ ᐊᑐᖁᓐᖏᑦᖢᒋᑦ, ᐋᒻ, ᑖᓐᓇ ᖁᕕᐊᒋᔭᕋᓗ− ᐊᕋ, ᐋ, ᖃᓪᓗᓈᑎᑐᑦ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᖅᓯᒪᓂᕆᔭᕋ ᑭᓯᐊᓂ ᓴᒃᑯᑦᓯᒋᐊᖃᓚᐅᕋᒪ ᐃᓕᖅᑯᓯᓐᓂᒃ, ᒥᖅᓱᕈᓐᓇᖏᑦᑐᖓ ᕿᓯᓕᕆᔪᓐᓇᖏᑦᑐᖓ ᐊᒥᓕᕆᔪᓐᓇᖏᑦᑐᖓ ᖁᓪᓕᕐᒥᓪᓘᓐᓃᑦ ᐃᑯᒻᒥᕆᔪᓐᓇᖏᑦᑐᖓ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕋᔭᓚᐅᖅ− ᑕᕋᓗᐊᒃᑲ ᐃᓄᒃᑐᓪᓚᕆᒃ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᓚᐅᕈᒪ ᑖᓐᓇ, ᐋ, ᐊᑐᕈᒪᔭᕋ ᐊᓯᔾᔩᖃᑕᐅᖁᔨᒍᒪᒐᒪ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᑳᖅᓯᒪᔪᖅᑎᒍᑦ, ᐋ, ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕆᐊᖅᐸᓪᓕᐊᐸᓪᓕᐊᔪᑦ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᑳᖅᓯᒪᔫᓂᕐᒥᓂᒃ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᖃᑕᐅᓗᑎᒃ ᐊᒻᒪᑦᑕᐅᖅ ᑲᓇᑕᒥᐅᑕᐅᓂᕐᒥᓐᓂᒃ ᖃᓪᓗᓈᑎᑐᑦᑕᐅᖅ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕈᒪᒻᒥᒃᐸᑕᑦᑕᐅᖅ ᑖᒃᓱᒥᖓ ᓂᕈᐊᔪᓐᓇ...ᓂᕈᐊᕈᓐᓇᖁᓪᓗᒋᑦ. ᐅᓇ ᓯᕗᓪᓕᕐᒥ ᐊᐱ− ᕆᒍᒪᕙᕋ ᑕᒪᕐᒥᒃ ᑭᐅᔪᓐᓇᕈᑎᒃ, ᐋ, ᑳᓯᑎᓗ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᓇᑖᓐ ᐅᓇ ᑐᕈᔅᑦ ᐊᓐ ᕆᑲᓐᓯᓕᐄᓴᓐ, ᐋ, ᐱᖁᔨᕗᖓᕈᑎᖏᑦ 62ᒥᒃ 65ᒧᑦ ᑎᓕᐅᕆᑦᓯᐊᖅᓯᒪᒐᓗᐊᕐᒪᑕ ᒐᕙᒪᓕᒫᕐᓄᑦ ᒐᕙᒪᑐᖃᒃᑯᓐᓄᑦ ᐊᕕᑦᑐᖅᓯᒪᔪᓄᓪᓗ ᐊᓯᖏᓐᓂᒃ ᖃᓄᖅ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐃᑲ− ᔪᖅᐹᓪᓕᕈᑎᐅᒍᓐᓇᕐᒪᖔᑦᑕ ᖃᓄᐃᒻᒪᒃᑭᐊᖅ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐱᓐᖑᖅᑎᑕᐅᕙᓪᓕᓐᖏᓚᑦ ᖃᓄᖅ ᑎᓕᐅᕆᓇᔭᖅᐱᓯ ᐱᓐᖑᖅᑎ− ᑕᐅᖁᓗᒋᑦ 62ᒥᒃ 65ᒧᑦ. ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ. ᓂᐊᕆᐊᖅᐸᓪᓕᐊᔪᑦ

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Firstly, I wish to welcome the speakers here. I see you all, and I'm happy to see you. Your presentations are very helpful.

We need to understand. I have been in education in English all my life. Natan said that in their own homes they speak Inuktitut. I can retain it if I speak it at home, but we also know that because I went to an English school all my life, up to grade 12 and twice in university, all that I learned was in English.

When I speak my mother tongue, I am happy. Many people, many Inuit.... I know I am not a fluent Inuktitut speaker because it hasn't been taught. I want to know whether education will also think of our young people who will not grow up in the educational system like us.

I am happy that I was able to be educated in English, but I had to leave my culture. I don't know how to sew traditional clothes. I do not know how to prepare sealskins or light a qulliq. I could have learned those life skills if I had learned my mother tongue. I want to learn them. I want to learn what I was supposed to learn in my mother tongue.

I encourage young people who are going to school now and who are working with indigenous people and other Canadians.... I would like to see that we have an option in Canada to learn two languages of our choice. Cassidy and Natan can respond.

The truth and reconciliation recommendations from 62 to 65, encourage all governments—federal, provincial, territorial and local governments—on how they can be more supportive. Why is it that none of those recommendations are being implemented, especially those recommendations from 62 to 65?

Thank you.

[English]

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Should we start with Ms. Caron, and then go to Mr. Obed?

[Cassidy Caron]

Sure. Thank you.

It's great to see you, Lori.

I know many of the truth and reconciliation calls to action, but I don't know the specific numbers around them.

Lori, are those specifically around education?

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᐄ ᐋ, ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐᓂᓕᕆᓂᐅᑉ, ᐋ, ᐱᒻᒪᕆᐅᓂᕋᕐᓂᕋᐃᔪᑦ ᐃᓗᓕᖃᖃᑕᐅᖁᔭᐅᓗᑎᒃ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐᕕᓐᓂ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᑳᖅᓯᒪ− ᔪᐃᑦ, ᐋ, ᐃᓕᖅᑯᓯᕐᒥᓐᓂᒃ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᕐᒥᓐᓂᓪᓗ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᖅᑎᑕᐅᖃᑦᑕᖁᔭᐅᓪᓗᑎᒃ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᖃᖅᑎᖁᔭᐅᓪᓗᑎᒡᓗ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Yes, they're regarding education. These are recommendations to improve education for indigenous people to learn their culture and their language. Funding should be a resource to make it happen.

[English]

[Cassidy Caron]

Thank you.

I can only imagine that the challenges once again come down to whose jurisdiction is implementing these recommendations—if it is on the provincial government to implement these within their educational systems, or if it is upon the federal government to implement the Truth and Reconciliation Commission calls to action.

Once again, we aren't seeing throughout the Métis nation the implementation of Métis-specific programs within the education system. There's just simply no uptake outside of our own educational authorities or, as I said, in the early learning and child care programs that our Métis governments are delivering on their own. We struggle to have that recognition within the provincial governments right now, and we will continue to see that.

That pan-indigenous approach to this, though, just does not work for our children. It is teaching Métis students different ways of knowing that aren't coming from our own communities. I think I'll leave it at that. It's that jurisdictional challenge that we continue to face.

However, in our Métis governments, we have the ability to develop these programs and these services for our children. While we don't have the ability to learn the Michif language in the provincial education system, our Métis governments have the resources to be able to do that.

Lori, as you said, you didn't have an education in your own language, but you could go home and you could speak it there. Our focus is on these early learning and child care centres, where these young people are learning their language at a really young age and then giving the parents the resources to continue that at home, because we do know that this gap is going to exist once they enter kindergarten and on into the ongoing years.

Again, on the resources, to be able to do that from our Métis governments and to be able to deliver it into our families is our best bet right now to do this in a good way.

[Natan Obed]

Specifically in relation to the calls to action, there are a number of things that we had hoped to do with Canadian educators and in Canadian educational systems to ensure that there was a distinctions-based approach to the way in which curricula are developed. Unfortunately, jurisdictions aren't very good at going to rights holders all the time. Often, if there's an individual whom they know, perhaps, and who then will happily take that space, curricula are developed with an individual perspective about our peoples, rather than an official perspective from representatives of first nations, Inuit and Métis.

That is not necessarily about children growing up in our communities, but it is about the way Canadians perceive the residential school experience and also the way in which Canadians understand Inuit, first nations and Métis realities.

When it comes to the funding of an education system and specifically to provide more funding and to be more open to increasing educational outcomes and attainments, we still are in that phase of building towards investments and ambitions.

Again, I'll go back to our educational attainment rights. We are over 50% lower in graduating our young students from grade 12 than other Canadians. It is unacceptable, and we need to figure out how to solve this. Yes, this committee conversation is great, but certainly it is a crisis within this country, and there are very strong pedagogical ways in which we can improve existing systems that categorically would give our students a better chance to succeed.

There aren't these mystical problems that we have no solutions for. Give students food to eat. Give them the courses they need to graduate. Allow for culture and language within the curriculum and celebrate that. Allow for that to be the foundation under which they can go out into the rest of the country and pursue further educational attainment. Provide the educational program in our mother tongue. It's not hard, but somehow we've made it impossible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

We have about 10 minutes left, so I'm going to suggest three minutes, three minutes, two minutes and two minutes for the first four.

We'll start with Mr. Melillo for three minutes.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to my fellow committee members and of course to our witnesses, whom we know very well. I really appreciate the conversation we've had today, and you've given us a lot to think about already. I really appreciate it.

I'll start with President Caron, but President Obed, if you want to jump in at any point, please do.

I really appreciate, President, that you talked about the barriers that exist, the low graduation rates, the lower scores for Métis students, but you also spoke about the need for a broader structure to particularly support some more culturally appropriate education. That really struck home for me.

I represent northwestern Ontario, part of the Métis homeland, and also 42 first nations across three treaty territories. I think a lot of people in my region, when they talk about indigenous education, they think about education on reserve, and that's it. Obviously, education on reserve is very important, but I would agree with you that there is a need for greater support in the provincial and the public systems, as you mentioned. We've started to see that in my riding as well, where Ojibwa is now being taught as a second language, for example. That is something that is relatively new that started when I was still in school.

I'm going to stop there because I'm going to eat up all of my time, but I want to hear from you, President Caron. Could you speak more specifically on some of the cultural aspects that you feel should be included that will make a difference for Métis people in order to advance that education in the public school system?

[Cassidy Caron]

Honestly, it's as simple as the recognition that there are three distinct indigenous peoples in this country. There are still a lot of Métis students whose parents don't identify them in these systems because then they will be taught somebody else's culture.

The ability for educators to know that there are three distinct indigenous peoples and that we have our own cultures, languages, histories and stories.... That recognition matters. It starts as simply as that. Then to be able to have educators understand that there are unique resources for Métis students, that there are Michif resources for the language of the Métis people.... It's not the only language. Métis people speak Cree, Dene and many different dialects of the Michif language. To know the stories of the Métis nation, where we come from, who we are, why we are so proud to be who we are—those things matter.

It's fantastic to be able to learn about other people's cultures, of course, and that's really important, especially if you are in a neighbouring first nations community and your colleagues and classmates are coming from different cultures. It's important to learn about that, but it's also important for that Métis student to also feel like they are being honoured, that they can be proud of who they are and that they can be proud to teach their classmates about who they are. When their teacher knows who they are and where they come from and the language that they speak, those things are just so important.

That distinctions-based recognition seems so simple, but it's just not there.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I appreciate it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Melillo.

Now we'll go to Mr. McLeod. Mr. McLeod, you will have three minutes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the presenters.

Education is a big part of our discussions whenever we talk about self-determination and self-governance. Many of our nations here in the north have focused a lot on post-secondary investment so that they can provide some support, whether it's tutors or just being able to adjust to living in the south.

The results that we're hearing, or the feedback that we're getting, is that this isn't good enough in terms of providing support for people to just get to that point. We need to look at complete wraparound support, right from the time a girl is going to have a baby, especially if there's no family around—no grandmother or somebody to advise her on making healthy choices. We could have babies who are born without being affected by FAS, FAE or other issues, because there's no program that can fix that. Education starts very early, right from the time the mother is expecting a child.

Can both of you tell me a little bit of how you see that as we talk about education in terms of having good outcomes?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Go ahead, Ms. Caron, and then Mr. Obed.

[Cassidy Caron]

Thank you. I couldn't agree more. When I say that the Métis nation looks at education as a lifelong pursuit, we really do mean that it starts from birth—being able to provide parents with the ability to raise this child in a good way, in a good home; and giving that person everything they need to be able to then go into the early learning and child care programs that we are able to deliver.

Children need support all throughout their life to be able to get to post-secondary education. As I said, with the investments we have seen through the Métis nation right now, we have early learning and child care and we have post-secondary education. How do we expect these children to carry on what they have picked up in these early learning and child care centres and then kind of make their way through K to 12 and be as successful as they were as little children and make it into post-secondary? We need continuous support for children to get to the post-secondary level.

From there, of course, what's next? It's about the different employment opportunities that will still be part of the Métis nation. Specifically in our case, it's about how we create jobs that will contribute to the Métis economy.

We're thinking about this lifelong journey of a Métis person from birth up until death. You're right that it takes wraparound supports, but it takes that continuous thinking around how we make sure somebody has everything they need to be successful right from birth until death. Right now, for the Métis nation, the glaring gap is within the K-to-12 education system.

[Natan Obed]

At ITK we've worked quite hard on early learning and child care. We released a framework in 2018. We will share that with the committee members. We'll also be sharing our national Inuit strategy on education.

To your point, though, Michael, in the space of early learning, as so many people from our culture have said, children need to be safe. Children need to be loved. Children need to be connected to their language and culture. That is the foundation that then allows the children to go into the world and experience and learn in the world in the healthiest and most productive way.

We still have a long way to go to ensure, as somebody said earlier, that there are those wraparound services to ensure that guardians and parents and whoever is in that circle of care for a young child have the ability to pave that path for that child and to have those three things—to be safe, to be loved and to be connected to their family and their community.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Obed.

Mrs. Gill, you have the floor for two minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Earlier, I mentioned the example of Kiuna College, located in Odanak, Quebec, in an Abenaki aboriginal community. This college caters to aboriginal youth...

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I'm so sorry. The English interpretation is not coming through.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

We will take a short break, because there is a problem with the interpretation.

Ms. Idlout, are you not hearing it in English?

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

No. I'm sorry. That was my own fault. I had to switch it to original when I was speaking and I forgot to put it back to English.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Okay. No problem.

Please continue, Mrs. Gill.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Earlier, I mentioned a college located in an aboriginal community, which I think is a good example in Quebec. This college is for aboriginal people who are doing higher education.

I would like more details on this. It would help the committee members in their study.

Mr. Obed, Ms. Caron, do you have any examples of what can be done?

There was talk of funding shortfalls particularly for the Métis Nation, and a number of other issues.

Do you have any examples of programs that are working well not only in your region and in your own communities, but also internationally, where there are other indigenous nations?

I would like to hear your comments on this.