Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 22nd, 2023

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I want to congratulate you, on behalf of myself and my colleague Marilène Gill, on your appointment as chair.

I also want to thank the witnesses who are with us today.

As the critic for status of women, I have had opportunities to hear the Native Women's Association of Canada speak from a feminist and indigenous perspective in other committees. I regret that their representative could not be here today owing to technical problems. Her testimony would have been quite enlightening, as usual, so I hope she will have an opportunity to appear before the committee again.

That said, another interesting point that both witnesses made was the importance of providing educational services to young children and intervening with them early on. In Quebec, we understand that importance. In fact, it was the first female premier of Quebec who set up the early childhood centres. When young children can benefit from a good education very early in life, even before they begin their schooling, it changes their outlook for life.

Mr. Sierzycki, I am now going to ask you a question, which Ms. Moss can also answer later.

In your remarks, you talked about the reality of northern Saskatchewan. Remoteness is a challenge that comes up frequently in this committee's discussions, regardless of the studies being conducted. That element is also frequently addressed in the work of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women, in relation to issues that particularly or differently affect women in rural or somewhat more remote communities.

When it comes to education, we see that first nations students often have to leave their families to study in larger centres. In doing so, they lose crucial contact with their territory, their loved ones and their culture. I would like to know what you think about the remoteness, the isolation experienced and its impact on the students.

[Thomas Sierzycki]

Thank you for that question.

In terms of remoteness, it creates significant challenges in many ways. One, of course, is being able to provide those educational opportunities that otherwise are attainable in urban centres. Second to that, of course, is connectivity and ensuring that the infrastructure's in place if you are going to do other things to ensure students have that access to either online learning or other aspects of that.

The reason Saskatchewan is in the process of going to a Treasury Board Crown for centralized online learning is to provide those opportunities to students in remote and rural areas that perhaps they wouldn't otherwise get. It's very important to have a teacher in place to support that online learning. However, the specialities are where you can really get into specifics in terms of supporting those students and ensuring they have the credits and the opportunities for further post-secondary education or entering the workforce.

Obviously there are lots of compliments to the federal government, as well as federal governments of the past and provincial governments, in terms of infrastructure development. We're only as good as the infrastructure in many communities. When you have SaskTel, the provider of telecommunications in the province, putting in infrastructure, those are huge things that need to take place in order to provide those online learning opportunities. Again, infrastructure is a big piece there.

To challenge the remoteness aspect, I think there's a key thing that all levels of government should consider. We have a centralized model of providing services to our citizens of Canada and of our province, but at times there's a decentralization movement that's also important. It is ensuring that service providers develop relationships with communities and go into communities. I know everyone from health, education and different aspects do go into communities, but it's creating that important relationship as you go in and build off it.

In educational terms, if you are sending in online learning supports, it's very important that those teachers who are working with those students actually go into the community at some point and talk to the students face to face and understand where they're coming from, their challenges, their opportunities and their families. Is it ideal and perfect based on the time commitment? It isn't always, but it's an extremely important thing that needs to be done to tackle remoteness and remote and rural types of learning opportunities.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Ms. Moss, do you have anything to add?

[Dr. Margaret Moss]

Sure. I'll answer very briefly. Thank you.

The pandemic, for the university, brought the idea of this remoteness to the fore. What we had to learn—professors, staff and everyone—was that flexibility is key, more than it ever has been, with indigenous students. This was recognizing the added costs, if they had to purchase things—either if we helped out through the enrolment services programs and so forth, or if they had to do it on their own—and the additional time that is sometimes needed due to connectivity and so forth.

There's the other side of the coin that, even when they are living in Vancouver, it is an expensive city to live in.

Whether they are remote or whether they are local, we've recognized that the support needed is profound.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Thank you, Ms. Larouche.

We'll now go to Ms. Idlout for six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

Firstly, I want to thank Marc Garneau for the time he served us as chairperson. He resigned before I had a chance to thank him.

Jenica, I welcome you to the chairperson's seat. I'm pretty sure that you will do a good job.

The question I have is for Margaret, and for Thomas afterward.

I will be speaking to the curriculum in colonized communities, because people who come from colonized communities struggle more. There are people who were taken from camps and settled into one community, and because of this, a lot of the learning or teaching materials have not really changed at all. A lot of the teaching materials are in English, and they do not really serve the indigenous people who are being taught. I wonder if this could be addressed.

Margaret Moss, if you could reply to my question, I would appreciate it. We need to see more teaching material in our languages.

[Dr. Margaret Moss]

Thank you for the questions.

Yes, the critical indigenous studies programs at UBC include first nations languages as one of the programs there. However, beyond that, as I said, we've created an indigenous strategic plan in which indigenizing the curriculum is one of the aspects.

When I'm not director of the First Nations House of Learning, I'm a part-time professor in the school of nursing. Following the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, we have a course on indigenous peoples' health that was mandated by the TRC. I teach one of those mandatory courses on indigenous health promotion, so I know that the medical school and some others have mandatory courses.

There are pros and cons to the mandatory.... As it is in medicine and in nursing, I know we're able to do it. There's a whole critical indigenous studies area, and there are some in law as well. However, we run into problems sometimes if coursework is mandated and there's no appropriate person trained in that area to teach it.

There are the two sides of the coin of how to indigenize and with whom to indigenize—who's going to make it appropriate and so forth—but I certainly agree.

I'm a U.S. citizen, but we have all the same issues. I would have been a sixties scoop person, but over there. I know exactly what you mean about trying to then get back and figure out from that complicated history what the truth is, if you will.

I thank you for that question.

[Thomas Sierzycki]

In terms of two aspects of the question, first, in terms of language, absolutely, students need to have that opportunity to learn in their respective languages and to have materials that are reflective of them.

We've been working with first nations education authorities as well as school divisions on the materials that kids use within their respective communities, whether they be Cree, Dene, Nakota or Lakota, depending on the geographical region of the province. We've ensured that those curricula are then accessible by other school divisions in the province so that they can adapt them to their area of the province. Kids' seeing themselves reflected and being able to communicate in their language are necessary for success.

The other aspect I want to touch on is experiential learning and land-based learning. As you indicated, there's that disconnect from the land kids have come from and from cultural components. Many school divisions and the province as a whole have created curriculum around land-based education and how to tie that into various aspects of the curriculum. You can easily do land-based education and tie in mathematics, sciences and social studies, first nations' ways of knowledge. Absolutely, those are two important aspects that I believe, going forward, we have to continue to invest our time in so that kids are reflected within what they're learning.

Thank you.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut interpreted as follows:]

There are many student teachers or many people learning to be teachers, but now there are not as many people applying to become teachers because, again, a lot of the teaching material is in English. The learning material is in English. If we're going to be recruiting indigenous teachers, I strongly believe that a lot of the learning materials should be in the language of the schools they will be serving in.

There are no northern teacher education programs running in the north, and a lot of the learning material they use is in English. That creates a disconnect between the culture and the profession they are pursuing.

Tom and Margaret, could reply to my comment?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Answer very quickly in just 30 seconds. We'll have a second round.

[Thomas Sierzycki]

In terms of teacher education programs, they are very innovative in Saskatchewan. The Dene TEP, CTEP and indigenous teacher education program all utilize language and cultural-based resources, so that's a tremendous point. We're hoping that continues to grow. Much of their material is in the language they're learning to teach in.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, we have time for a very short second round of two minutes.

Perhaps, Ms. Moss, you could answer that in the second round, in the interest of time.

We'll proceed to the Conservatives, and Mr. Schmale, for two minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Congratulations once again.

Congratulations to Mr. Aldag. It's nice to see him again.

Welcome to the committee.

Before I get into my question, I have a bit of housekeeping. In the first round, when Gary Vidal was doing his questioning, you let him go about 12 seconds too long. When I was in the chair, I cut him off 30 seconds early. He pointed that out to me, so, if you want to cut him off 45 seconds early, you'll have no complaints from this side.

Thank you, witnesses for coming, both of you. Since I have a very short period of time, maybe I will start with the witness here in person. According to Indigenous Services' report, graduation rates of first nations on-reserve students have gone down about 6%, whereas, overall, graduation rates for first nations students are going up.

Without getting too partisan, are there any lessons that you could pass along to ISC from things you're doing differently that could, potentially, create a best practice situation so we can start to see an increase in these numbers?

[Thomas Sierzycki]

In terms of improving the graduation rates off reserve, again, in Saskatchewan, it's trending a little bit differently. Is it still high enough? Absolutely not, so we as a province are still trying to figure out what the “best” best practices are. In terms of investments, investments are important to ensure resourcing and to have the capacity, the human capacity, to deliver programs.

Again, if you're a student in an urban location, you may have different supports than some other first nations communities in the province. Therefore, it comes down to that expertise and support mechanism. Our hope and the goal of our online school is to provide opportunities to all students across the province, so there's an example of bridging the divide between specialities and where students may be in the province.

Again, when it comes down to it, it definitely creates an issue when you don't have the supports in place or the access to those supports for those kids.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Thank you very much, Mr. Schmale.

Mr. Battiste, you have two minutes.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I am going to go back to Dr. Moss.

Dr. Moss, at the end of this study we're going to be making several recommendations on what we can do better. From the university and post-secondary angle, can you give us some very concrete recommendations as to what students need for supports in post-secondaries and universities to be successful?

[Dr. Margaret Moss]

Sure. I'll look at our challenges, so the recommendations will be the opposite.

Flexibility is number one. That's a huge challenge for faculty and staff to understand the challenges of indigenous students. There at times has to be flexibility to even the playing field.

There have to be unique, tailored supports or interventions. We need to meet the needs of the individuals because, again, we have a wide array of first nations, Métis, Inuit, urban, reserve-based and so forth, so there needs to be unique, tailored supports.

Again, as I had mentioned previously, for our students—and it could be for others—the cost of living in the city is horrendous, so we have to find ways for monetary as well as other supports for them to be able to safely and securely get through without worrying about money at all times.

There is the need for multiple spaces and inclusion. The idea of belonging is so important. We need to make sure that there are spaces, such as our collegia that we have within the Longhouse, and others.

I am glad the other witness brought up land-based learning. We have really partnered with the UBC farm and what's happening over there, so we have the indoor Longhouse and then the farm is the outdoor. We really try to bring some programming together where there can be smudging if that's one's tradition, fires and so forth.

The idea of belonging in many other ways, such as was brought up, that having a language.... It's difficult and there are so many languages, but at least have a few languages, which we do and we do have an elder in residence for the Longhouse, who is also in the language department, so there is some cross-work going on there.

Then ongoing—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

I'm sorry, Ms. Moss. I'll have to pass it to our next speaker. Thank you.

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for two minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I thank both witnesses for being here.

Mr. Sierzycki, could you provide a picture of the education situation for indigenous students in Saskatchewan? What are their needs? What issues that need to be addressed are the federal government's responsibility?

Earlier, you mentioned the Treasury Board. Do you have anything to add concerning that?

[Thomas Sierzycki]

In regard to the needs of students, I am going to give you the provincial perspective of what we know or what we've identified as the kids needing to know. Perhaps, then, it's up to the federal government and of course representatives to make their decisions based off of that.

In the province, we know there are fundamental pieces that kids need in order to learn, those being a welcoming place they belong, mental health supports and the social dynamics of their being prepared to learn. When you take away those Maslow's hierarchy of needs aspects, when they come to school they're ready to learn.

As educators, there is a fine line in providing those types of services; however, it is up to the Ministry of Education and other government ministries to work collaboratively to support those kids.

If there is one thing we've learned as a province, it is the siloed approach to governance in terms of how we provide educational opportunities to kids across the province. Whether it's the Ministry of Social Services, whether it's the Ministry of Immigration and Career Training or whether it's the Ministry of Health, we as ministries have a responsibility to work collaboratively for those opportunities. Until those barriers are brought down and that collaborative nature is imposed, kids will have a difficult time learning because the needs are significant.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Ms. Idlout, you have two minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Margaret, I just want to hear what your response is to the question I posed earlier.

Thank you.

[Dr. Margaret Moss]

I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question?

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

My question was in regard to a lack of people applying or taking on teaching as a career opportunity or learning to become a teacher. I think the fact that the teaching and the learning material is mostly in English has a lot to do with it.

Do you think that if indigenous peoples were able to learn in their culture and their language, we would see more recruitment of teachers?

[Dr. Margaret Moss]

Thank you for the question. I remember it now.

At UBC we do have the NITEP program, which is the native teacher education program. I'm sure it's mainly in English, but to answer your question, yes it would actually make a huge difference.

I could see where it should be almost hybrid though—their own language, as well as English—to be able to operate where they have to in English, yet be able to teach in their own language where they're teaching it. In other words, it's to gain the skills overall, but to use both languages. I have seen back in the U.S., where I have mainly lived, that some have both—for instance, Dakota and English—to be able to more appropriately teach either class and to be able to bring people together.

Absolutely, it would be very helpful to understand concepts and so forth in your first language, but it's probably prudent to also have English or French.