Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 1st, 2023

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today, for coming to Ottawa for the introduction of this bill and also for their previous testimony on our first study—on barriers to economic development for indigenous peoples.

I want to start with a question that has been brought up in different ways by some of my other colleagues. Obviously, it's incredible that almost 350 communities have signed up for this, but there are quite a few that have not. In speaking to some accountants, one concern I heard raised is that there may not necessarily be the capacity in some of the much smaller indigenous communities.

I was wondering whether you, perhaps, Mr. Calla, could speak to that, and whether some of the changes in this bill, in particular—you mentioned the non-profits that work with a number of first nations—might help address some of those issues.

[Harold Calla]

Thank you for that question.

We are undertaking a pilot project at the moment, which we're calling “support services”. It will address those issues, because what we experience, particularly in the default management program that has become so successful, is many northern or remote communities having difficulty attracting and retaining staff. They just can't do it. You can't do it 634 times, either. You have to create a mechanism where you create the accountability and transparency that will be required.

We now have an initial pilot project with some first nations communities to road-test this concept of a shared services platform, where the back-office functions are taken care of. It's not making decisions for them, but rather allowing for the competency that comes from being able to hire professional staff who may be centrally located. What we've learned through the pandemic is that you don't have to work in any specific location. I think that has greatly helped us in our view of what we'll be able to accomplish with this program: providing functions that can't be filled in some communities because of their locations.

These are very important first steps for us to do. I give the government credit. They didn't wait for this legislation to have us start this pilot project. We're starting it now and it will hopefully grow into a much larger non-profit.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

That's fantastic. Thank you very much for sharing that.

[Clarence T. (Manny) Jules]

Could I interject for a second?

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Please do.

[Clarence T. (Manny) Jules]

We created the Tulo Centre of Indigenous Economics, which has trained over 150 tax administrators. The reason we created that institution was to transfer our working knowledge as quickly as possible from the institutions to the communities, who are really the implementers of their own jurisdiction. A lot of them are very small communities. By working together with standardized rules and regulations, it makes it easier for communities across the country to work together.

As a matter of fact, this week in my home community we have administrators meeting now to be certified. We're creating ultimately a doctoral program with Thompson Rivers University and are reaching out and working with the University of Canterbury on South Island in New Zealand.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

That's very exciting. Thank you very much for sharing that.

My next question is for you, Mr. Claxton. I'm really excited about the prospect of this new infrastructure institute being formed. In your opening, you mentioned the problems the existing system has with being slow, costing too much and leading to projects down the road that are poorly built. I'm hoping that you could maybe speak a little bit more to how this particular institute could address that, not just the building of infrastructure but perhaps the ongoing maintenance of it as well.

[Allan Claxton]

Yes. I'll give you a couple of examples of what we've been doing with our pilot projects. We've gone into two communities with our team.

I'll go in there as a former chief and get introduced to the community. We'll find out what their infrastructure needs are and we'll bring the proper people in to, first of all, get them shovel-ready. Secondly, our mandate is to build their capacity so that it keeps getting higher. As their capacity builds, the need for FNII goes the other way.

Maybe Jason could elaborate on this a bit more.

[Jason Calla]

It's a great question.

I think one of the ideas about FNII is that it's similar, in a sense, to the other organizations. It's about standards and best practices. Instead of financial management or taxation, in this case it's about infrastructure. What are the best practices for developing a business case for a project? We are starting to think about those. We know that there's the standard-making power in the amendments, but we've already started to think about what those standards would be based on best practices that we've seen off reserve in Canada and internationally in indigenous projects as well. We're thinking about the strategic case for the project and really linking it back: Why are you doing the project? How is it linked to the comprehensive community plan that a community may have? It's really about tying it back to those objectives so that it's what the community actually wants, which is not always the case for projects.

It's also thinking about the technical case for the project and thinking through the technical options for the project, the commercial case and the procurement approach, which can allocate risks to the appropriate parties in the process. That can help with the timeliness and with addressing cost issues and change orders. It's thinking about the financial case. Of course, being a part of the fiscal management act, we see a great value there for communities in bringing more tools out of the FMA tool box to bear on a project and really thinking about the life-cycle approach. We know that this is a challenge with the current approach. There are often not the appropriate resources for operation and maintenance through the entire life cycle. We'd like to see that whole life-cycle costing, again, using the tools—local revenues, fees, development cost charges, monetized transfers and, last but not least, certainly the management case—and appropriate training and local participation.

All of those things together, we think, will help bring a better way of bringing projects forward. They'll get done more quickly. They'll bring value for money, and we'll get projects that last for their full life cycle.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Thank you, Mr. Weiler.

Go ahead, Mrs. Gill. You now have two and a half minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My questions this time will focus on the legislation and its application and, of course, on the expansion of legislative authority. I don't know which witness will be able to answer my questions, but I invite anyone who wants to do so to chime in.

How and to what extent do you want to expand the legislative authority? Can you give us some examples? One of the things we talked about was service delivery.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Would anyone like to respond?

Mr. Jules.

[Clarence T. (Manny) Jules]

It goes back to your earlier question about how we could expand this to include Métis and Inuit.

Right now our focus is on first nation communities, but it isn't a stretch to be able to expand that to include other communities, as I mentioned in my presentation.

One of the things you asked for is enforcement. That's a big issue for all of our institutions that are operating, not only the FMA but also the Lands Advisory Board. This issue came to the forefront during the early days of COVID, when first nations wanted to exert their jurisdiction to isolate themselves and they found that they didn't have the jurisdiction to be able to do that because of limitations either as a band council or as a community.

One of the things we started to look at a long time ago, and it's of particular interest to all of us, is the court of competent jurisdiction to deal with first nation issues. That's critically important as we begin to move forward.

You would naturally think that the Federal Court would be the court we would, obviously, be looking towards, but I started to look at that and the complexity in terms of the amendments that are required, and it takes more than just one institution to be able to deal with it. When you look at the provincial courts, they're limited. A lot of their precedents are either municipal or outside of the first nations or indigenous purview.

Ultimately, we have to study the issue of enforcement. When you look at the populations of indigenous people in the prisons, it's obvious that you have to take economic reconciliation seriously. The root causes of those are all social policy issues. The federal government, for many years, has looked at us simply as a social policy issue and that has to change fundamentally.

When we talk about economic reconciliation—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

I'm sorry, Mr. Jules, but that's your time.

[Clarence T. (Manny) Jules]

—it truly means fiscal powers.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I'm out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

You are, Mrs. Gill. Thank you.

Madam Idlout, you have two and a half minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ ᐋᒻ ᓇᐃᑦᑐᒥᒃ ᐊᐱᖅᑯᑎᒃᓴᖃᖅᑐᖓ ᐋ ᓯᕗᓂᒃᓴᕐᒧᑦ ᑕᐅᑐᓐᖑᐊᖁᓪᓗᓯ ᐋ ᐅᓐᓂᖅᑑᑎᓂᒃ ᐅᖃᕈᓐ− ᓇᖅ− ᐱᓯ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐋ ᐱᖁᔭᓐᖑᖅᑎᑕᐅᔪᒪᔪᑦ ᐋ ᓴᖅᑭᑕᐅᓇᔭᖅᑐᑦ ᑐᓗᖅᑕᕈᑎᓂᒃ ᓴᖅᑭᒃᑕᐃᓕᑎᑦᓯᖁᔨᒡᓗᒋᑦ ᑖᓐᓇ ᑲᔪᓯᔾᔪᑎᒋᓂᐊᖅᑕᒃᓯ ᑲᔪᓯᒃᓯᐊᖏᓐᓇᖁᒡᓗᒍ ᐋ ᐃᓱᒪᒃᓴᖅᓯᐅᕈᑎᒥᒃ ᐅᓐᓂᖅᑑᑎᓂᒃ ᓴᖅᑭᑦᓯᔪᓐᓇᖅᐱᓯᖅᑲᐃ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

I have a short question.

For the purpose of thinking into the future, what kinds of recommendations would you have to ensure that regulations don't create barriers to supporting the work that you are doing and to ensure that there is continuity in the work that you are doing? What other recommendations would you have?

[English]

[Harold Calla]

It's Harold.

Grant, I'm assuming that you're in the room. I'm going to punt this one to you.

[Grant Christoff, General Counsel, First Nations Financial Management Board]

Thank you for punting that one to me.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak in this room.

With respect to the development of regulations, we do have to develop regulations in support of broadening the definition of “borrowing members”. As Ernie mentioned previously, that work is under way. I hope that work will be completed as well as the regulations in support of supporting the non-profit organizations that we talked about here. The legislative basis is created through these amendments. Regulatory work is required to support full access to the FMA.

I'll just note for the committee here that we have the ability to work with these organizations now. We can issue compliance opinions, but what we are talking about is financial performance certification and financial management system certification, so a lot more work.

I'm not sure if that responds to your question, though, Lori.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᑕᒪᒃᑯᐊ ᐱᓕᕆᔾᔪᑎᒋᓂᐊᖅᑕᑦᓯᓐᓂᒃ ᐋ ᐅᓐᓂᖅᑑᑎᓂᒃ ᓇᓗᓇᐃᕆᔪᓐᓇᕐᒪᖔᑦᓯ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐱᓕᕆᒋᐊᓯᒍᑦᓯ ᐋ ᑐᓗᖅᑕᕈᑎᑕᖃᖁᔨᓐᓇᓐᖏᒻᒪᓂᓛᒃ ᐋ ᐃᓛᓐᓂᒃᑯᑦ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐱᖁᔭᓐᖑᖅᑎᑕᐅᓂᐊᖅᑐᑦ ᐋ ᑐᓗᖅᑕᕈᑎᓕᐅᓲᖑᒻᒪᑕ ᓴᖅᑭᑦᑕᐃᓕᖁᔨ ᑐᓗᖅᑕᕈᑎᓂᒃ ᑖᓐᓇ ᒪᓕᒐᒃᓴᖅ 45 ᑐᓴᕐᓂᖅᑑᒐᓗᐊᕐᒪᑦ ᐋ ᑲᔪᓯᑦᓯᐊᖁᑐᐃᓐᓇᕋᔭᖅᐸᕋ ᑭᓯᐊᓂ ᐱᖁᔭᓐᖑᖅᑎᑕᐅᓇᔭᖅᑐᑦ ᐋ ᑐᓗᖅᑕᕈᑎᖁᓇᔭᓐᖏᓐᓇᒃᑭᓂᓛᒃ ᑐᑭᓯᓇᕐᓂᕈᒪ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

On the work that you are going to be doing, and in terms of recommendations, can you identify any recommendations in order to ensure that the work you are doing does not go to waste? For the regulations that will be created, I just don't want to create or see any barriers. Bill C-45 is one bill that's really a pleasure to hear about, but this is in order to avoid barriers in the regulations.

[English]

[Clarence T. (Manny) Jules]

Perhaps I could comment.

My dad talked about moving at the speed of business, and that means being able to move very quickly. There is one thing that is critically important for parliamentarians to recognize. When we deal with Parliament, from start to finish, on a legislative agenda.... In 2016, we first introduced the concept of the infrastructure institute, and it has taken us seven years to get to this stage. If we're truly going to move on an economic reconciliation agenda, that process has to speed up considerably.

When we deal with changes that are necessary for the operation of our institutions, there are going to be areas where we're going to need legislative change in the future. We would ask parliamentarians and, in particular, this committee to be cognizant of that, to work with us, because we have the track record. Dealing with first nation communities, we've built up a lot of trust. We know that we can deliver, but we have to be able to speed up any legislative initiatives as required—and there are going to be many. I mentioned a couple of them during my presentation.

[Ernie Daniels]

If I could add—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

I'm sorry, Mr. Daniels, but you have to wait for another time for the question.

We'll move on. We have five minutes for Mr. Zimmer.

Take it away.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses.

I have a very specific question for you, Chief and Councillor Claxton. I'm looking at the portfolio of what you currently do as a councillor, not to mention what you've done in the past. It's culture, language, elders, finance, personnel, health, education and social development, fisheries, maintenance and public works, the First Nations Finance Authority and the list goes on down to the RCMP. The reason I bring that up for the audience who might be watching today is that I want to bring this into the context of somebody who's on the ground and who has seen what hasn't worked in the past and what needs to be done to make it better.

I have many first nations in my riding up in Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, and I can attest that we have gone before to different ministers of first nations, only to ask and get very little in terms of a response to specific questions. It's very difficult.

Seeing how unresponsive it can be sometimes, just from your own perspective, you've talked about what potential changes this is going to have to infrastructure and first nation communities. As a person who's on the ground, what's going to be different going forward if these amendments pass?