Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 3rd, 2023

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Monday, I was told that the people who had been consulted are members of first nations that were already participating under the act. This leads me to believe that some nations did participate and did not receive any funding.

We've got the nations that were consulted, but what about those that weren't. I am guessing that if those nations aren't participating, it's because of obstacles. Maybe the act isn't attractive to them either. I can't say, and it's not up to me to do that. However, I wonder why you didn't consult them, if you hope to offer them the best possible choice of development tools.

My question is basically about the nations that aren't participating under the act.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

There are a large number of communities listed in the schedule, but not all of them are. Some communities see the act as colonial. Some communities have another vision of their self-determination, and others are experiencing difficulties that keep them from participating.

We will indeed have to keep up our efforts to be as inclusive as possible. I think the leaders of these organizations would be the first to say so.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Okay. These nations weren't consulted, but we still know that...

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Not to my knowledge. But they might have been consulted through the band.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

It would be interesting to consult them afterwards. However, I do understand that it is a huge undertaking and that some considerations, whether they be ideological or political, can mean certain communities will choose not to participate under the First Nations Fiscal Management Act. Obviously, that is also their choice.

You said in your opening statement that certain hurdles have been eliminated. Setting aside those that are linked to the infrastructure project, what are the main hurdles that have been eliminated thanks to the amendments proposed in bill C‑45?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

It's mainly hurdles in terms of flexibility. The act still had a lot of impediments that gave more authority to the federal government. Now the communities will have more flexibility, more room to manoeuver in seeking access to capital.

More services will be provided. Institutions are taking a closer look at the consultations that we have done over the past few years and aim to make changes in keeping with the needs of communities who want better access to capital.

Bill C‑45 gives rise to tremendous hope. The communities have been waiting for it for a long time now, and I would be thrilled if you could speed up its passing. I know that the Senate will also have a say, but we would be most grateful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

Next, we have Ms. Idlout for six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to each of you for being present.

Minister Miller, thank you for your presence, for providing your presentation on the matter of the legislation, and for working with first nations organizations. This work was very important.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I apologize. I'm not getting the English.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Just one minute, Ms. Idlout.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I hate to make you repeat it, but I wasn't getting anything.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I won't lose time, right?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I can't tell the committee what to do, but I hope she has her time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

You'll have your full time back, Ms. Idlout.

Go ahead.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister Miller, for your presence, and thank you to your colleagues, as well. I'm glad to see everyone here.

The presentation you just provided was nice to listen to. You worked with first nations organizations in creating and implementing this bill. However, we all know we need other amendments to the bill. For instance, The Hill Times newspaper had an article regarding inadequate infrastructure due to a lack of proper funding in the amount of $349.2 billion. With the $349.2-billion envelope, and thinking of the laws or bills that will be amended, what other infrastructure will be created? How will this envelope of funding help reduce the gap in infrastructure?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Thank you, MP Idlout.

It's important to take a step back when we talk about this suite of legislation. It is only part of the conversation, for sure. Even the discussions on monetization are ones where certain communities would benefit from it and, clearly, others might not.

The way the government has dealt with infrastructure gaps in the past has been insufficient. When it has, it was typically through a grant model. When you're talking about the vast sums of money that are needed to close that infrastructure gap, the reasoning you have heard from a number of officials is that the grant model is not sufficient. I don't know that to be the case. When you look at the suite of tools that exist for indigenous communities to access capital, we certainly have to have an equal amount, if not more than what non-indigenous communities have, particularly given the Government of Canada's direct obligation to close those socio-economic gaps, and our existing fiduciary duties.

We have seen in the last couple of budgetary cycles vast amounts of infrastructure monies. In the case of your constituency, and the people you serve, MP Idlout, that work will transform some communities, but there is so much more to do, whether it's redoing the infrastructure in Iqaluit for the water, or whether it's getting the housing built. I spoke to the premier about that yesterday. These are all things that, if we relied solely on the institutions supported by this legislation, would never happen. You need direct support from the Government of Canada in making sure that actually gets done.

How does that get done? It gets done through consistent investments from the Government of Canada and making sure we are closing those gaps in the way the Inuit Nunangat policy tells us to behave, which is in co-development and in the spirit of self-determination. That requires constant co-operation with, in your case, NTI and the Government of Nunavut. We have good relationships with them, but we know the money is still needed out there. It will have to come through grant models. Leveraging the Infrastructure Bank is one aspect. Opening up some flexibility in terms of the availability of capital is another one. We have taken some small steps in that regard.

Given the seriousness and the importance of that gap, we have to have all options on the table. This will play its part, I think, and a very important part, but it is very much only one part of the conversation.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

We know that over 300 first nations organizations, or their local bands, have wanted to be included in this bill. Can you explain why other first nations people and their bands would not want to be included in this bill, although it seem to be helpful?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I think there are probably a number of reasons, which I probably won't do justice to. I alluded to it a little when I answered MP Gill's question. There are some communities that don't feel they should be subject to this type of regulation from the Government of Canada, regardless of the potential benefits it offers. There are perhaps others that don't feel it's for them for a variety of reasons. There are probably others that are still not comfortable or have challenges with capacity in even getting to the table.

I think that is where Indigenous Services and Crown–Indigenous Relations play very important roles in working with communities. Those are often the stories of the have-nots. I have no particular answer to offer you, but as you can see in the number, it is not an exclusive club only for the haves. I've had conversations with leadership in these groups where they have engaged with communities that are not part of this or not scheduled, and they are eager to help and get out there.

For lack of a better word, I think there is a convincing job to do for those communities that are hesitant. I don't want to speak on their behalf, because I know that there are a variety of reasons. There is some work to do to gain more acceptance. I think because the previous legislation was seen, in that context, as heavy-handed, this will open the door to more of these conversations, but when you look at those that are scheduled and then those that have accessed capital, from 348 to 77, there is a gap there that is still to be addressed within the current group of scheduled ones as well.

I wouldn't say that for everyone in this group everything is rosy, because it isn't, but again, I do persist in thinking that this is an extremely important suite of legislation that is important to get passed and modernized, even though it's a piece of legislation that's only 20 or so years old.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Qujannamiik, Ms. Idlout.

We'll now move to our second round.

Mr. Melillo, you have five minutes.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

I think it's great that we're moving this forward. It's always nice when we can agree, at least a little bit, in this place. I appreciate your being here on this.

I want to speak to some of the comments we heard from witnesses in the last meeting, Minister. It's clear that the infrastructure institute, this idea of monetization and the ideas set out in Bill C-45 have been on your department's radar for quite some time. If I'm not mistaken, the institute itself has been part of the departmental plan since 2020.

Obviously, we're all happy to see this moving forward, but I'm wondering if you can shed some light on what happened since 2020 and why it's taken so long for us to get to this point.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I guess it's a combination of things. Building the case has been an important aspect of this. In my capacity as the current indigenous services minister, I met with a number of the proponents. They made their cases convincingly.

In the context, and looking at the priorities we had over that period, I know that a lot of you guys would say that there was a whole heck of a lot of money going out there during that time, but it was to deal with a once-in-a-lifetime, let's hope, pandemic. It is always an issue of priorities. It was very hard, actually, to get infrastructure builds done with communities shut down. That is just a fact. It is particularly a tribute to a lot of the communities that lifted their boil water advisories during that period of time in terms of the efforts that were put in to get stuff done.

Yes, there are priorities. Yes, there is getting the business case across the line and prioritizing that as part of the budgets in question. When it comes to the infrastructure institute and these institutions, there is a general perception that they are west coast-led, and I think—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I do have limited time, Minister.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

That's fine. I appreciate that. I did want to give you a suite of answers that were helpful.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Maybe you can get to it in the next question here.

I think you can appreciate where I'm coming from on this, because obviously there is a huge infrastructure gap. We have a lot of work we need to do. Having all these delays is definitely a concern for me, and I'm sure it's a concern for you. I would suggest that it does remain a priority for your government to move this forward. It's concerning that it hasn't been, of course, over the last number of years.

Minister, it brings to mind the situation of Grassy Narrows First Nation. I know that you're well aware of that. I want to thank Ms. Idlout for raising this concern as well in the chamber earlier today. It should be non-partisan. This community has been struggling with the effects of mercury poisoning for decades, as you know. I recall working with you and Chief Turtle shortly after I was elected, almost three years ago, when an agreement was reached. We were all excited to see some progress happen there. Now, unfortunately, we're seeing further and further delays.

Can you speak to why we're seeing delays with this project? Can you tell us when your government will keep its promise and deliver this treatment centre?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

When we talk about the agreement with Grassy Narrows, it was really important to sign it and commit to building a mercury treatment facility—not just a mercury treatment facility, but a new water plant. There was over $80 million put on the table to build and operate the facility, without counting the new water plant. That's a lot of money. It took a pretty innovative approach with the community at the time to get that across the finish line.

What we've seen clearly—without speaking of the discussions that are ongoing, because those are discussions being led by Minister Hajdu—is that there has been an increase in the cost of building materials. The process that was put in place is one—