Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 29th, 2023

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

What about substance abuse?

[Valerie Gideon]

It's within the context of that, but I can tell you that in budget 2021, for example, we increased the number of opioid agonist sites, treatment sites, from 40 to 78. We're continuing to expand access to substance use services.

It's important to remember that we have flexibility in our agreements. First nations have flexibility to design mental health services according to the needs they have.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I'd like briefly to switch to another topic, and that is funding for post-secondary institutions in first nations communities. I'm glad you're shaking your head, Ms. Gideon, because I think you were the one who responded about a year ago, when I asked the same question, and I think, at that point, there was some consideration in Indigenous Services as to changing the funding or making more funding available.

If you could tell me.... I'm not looking for a specific figure, but how are those institutions being funded, and is that being reconsidered? I know Seven Generations, which is in my riding, in Couchiching, has certainly had problems with ongoing funding.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'll take a stab at the overarching thought and then turn it over to the officials.

Largely, the funding that Indigenous Services Canada provides is to first nations to direct post-secondary supports for their students. It may go out in a variety of different ways. Students, of course, benefit from the Government of Canada's changes, under our government, to the Canada student loan and grant program. There's a doubling of student grants, as well as the forgiveness of interest. These are all beneficial to low-income students.

In addition, Indigenous Services Canada has funding to provide additional supports for post-secondary students from first nations across the country to pay for some of the extraordinary costs that are associated with going away for school, or for other kinds of related costs.

In some cases, communities use that money to provide wraparound supports for post-secondary students, so that they have connection to the community while they're studying. In my own riding, Biigtigong is a community that does exactly that, and it has had over an 80% post-secondary graduation rate because of the connection to community and the ongoing support for its students while they're away and studying.

In terms of the future, every dollar we spend in supporting people to access post-secondary education is a positive dollar spent for the growth agenda of Canada, because it produces professionals, skilled tradespeople and people who can fill the significant labour force gap that we see across the country.

Valerie can maybe speak to some of the institutions.

[Valerie Gideon]

I can speak a bit to the funding.

In budget 2019, we were able to secure $320 million over five years for first nations post-secondary education, but we have been working with first nations on a strategy and continuing to advocate for greater resources, because, as you noted, the demand is high within communities, which is a good thing.

We also introduced post-secondary education funding for Inuit and members of the Métis nation. There's $125.5 million over 10 years for Inuit, and, for the Métis nation, there's $362 million over 10 years. There is also ongoing funding.

That was an expansion of a traditional role that Indigenous Services had.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Thank you very much, Mr. Powlowski.

I'm going to need unanimous consent from our committee members to sit through 10 minutes of the bells. Do I have unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Thank you very much.

We'll continue.

Go ahead, Mrs. Gill. You have six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for being here today, Minister.

The committee met with you not long ago to discuss the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer's report. That's helpful because it ties in with the current estimates. An issue that was raised had to do with the fact that a lot of money was invested after the main estimates came out, through the supplementary estimates. Department staff, however, had trouble using that supplementary funding because they didn't have enough capacity. I don't have the exact figures for every budget item, but it was one of the things that stood out.

The spending proposed in these estimates is pretty considerable. The figures are laid out. I assume expenditures will be added in the course of the year. My concern is twofold. First, will you be able to spend the money as intended? Second, have you taken any steps, or do you have any initiatives under way, to address the resource gap, so that the money can be spent and indigenous populations can benefit?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

I believe we will be able to spend the money in the main estimates. I would say the area we have the most difficulty spending in is the infrastructure category, even though we have a huge need in infrastructure. Oftentimes, there are delays to projects that are beyond the department's control, and those can delay a project's final expenditure. Even in that category, we know that what we have received through the main estimates will be easily allocated to address the needs across the country.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

All right. Does that mean the information in the Parliamentary Budget Officer's report is wrong?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think we discussed the Parliamentary Budget Officer's report at length at the last meeting. Certainly we talked a lot about setting measurables, and we talked about the need to work with first nations communities to determine how and what to measure and what outcomes we should measure. We will certainly continue that work over the next year.

Maybe Val can speak a bit more about this.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

That wasn't my question. I wanted to follow up on the lack of capacity or staff, not on the reasons. It was very specific. I hope you will have enough staff to do the work.

You brought up the delays in infrastructure projects overall. Taking into account this year's investments and last year's delays, what percentage of infrastructure needs will you be able to fulfill? Which community infrastructure needs will you be able to fulfill this year? What's the shortfall? What will you be able to accomplish this year in spite of the delays, which as you pointed out, aren't necessarily within the department's control?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

The infrastructure gap is large. We are very grateful to the first nations who participated in a survey we conducted in the spring of 2022 to request information on needed infrastructure assets and the order in which those assets are needed. We also worked with the AFN, and of course now we have a better understanding of the gap. It's quite large.

The AFN has a number that is extremely large. In fact, the AFN estimated the cost to close the first nations infrastructure gap to be $349 billion, so you can well imagine that the gaps are significant.

Indigenous Services Canada is doing a number of things. First, it is reforming the infrastructure program so that communities have more self-determination in terms of prioritizing what gaps they want to close in their own community and how they want to do that. Second, they are working with a variety of different departments to try to close that gap more quickly and to leverage new tools for financing for first nations communities to close that gap. Third, they are helping communities with the staging of that work.

In some cases it can be very complex, as you point out. You can imagine, if a remote community is fly-in only or is serviced by ice roads, that there's a very small window of time in which equipment and building supplies can be brought into that community. If the gap includes multiple projects, there's also the question of staging a workforce, finding a place for those people to stay and determining how they will stage that work, so they have the right professionals in the community at the right time.

It's work that continues, and certainly we see some first nations that are really quite successful at meeting their infrastructure gap and coordinating that work, but often those tend to be closer to road access and services.

Val, do you want to speak a bit more about that?

[Valerie Gideon]

Minister, the survey we did has had a 72% response rate so far, and we certainly have a good sense of what communities are prioritizing. I'll note that since 2016 the government has invested $8.5 billion to address over 8,000 infrastructure projects on reserves.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

Ms. Idlout, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a lot of questions, but time is short, so I will keep my questions to the point.

The first question I have is for Indian and Northern Affairs about the funding that is given by northern affairs to NIHB.

If you have kept a record of all the changes and all the programs that you have implemented so far, I would like to see it. There was talk about increasing mental health programs for the people in the communities who need to see specialists—special doctors—because they cannot be treated by the health professionals in community health clinics.

[English]

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Yes. Through the NIHB, there is mental health counselling available. It depends on the particular individual. The program is intended to provide coverage for professional mental health counselling that can complement other services available in the community.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I'm so sorry to interrupt you, but I don't know that my interpreter understood what I was trying to ask, so I'll ask it in English.

In the last budget, it was announced that there would be a couple of changes to the non-insured health benefits program, in two areas. Those areas of change were to services for mental health, and the second area of change that I seem to remember was announced in the budget was medical travel.

I wonder if you could explain what those changes might be, according to what was announced in the budget.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

There were additional dollars dedicated to mental wellness in the budget, but I'll have to turn to the officials to talk about NIHB-specific changes.

[Valerie Gideon]

I know NIHB went through some changes with respect to mental health counselling a few years ago, essentially by expanding the counselling benefit so that it's not strictly associated with crisis counselling, and also ensuring that it was clear that although on average most individuals use up to 22 hours of counselling, they can absolutely be approved for additional hours of counselling as needed.

The other change was that instead of just relying on fee-for-service professional counselling services, where we pay registered providers in the program, we have been using funding agreements with communities or organizations, tribal councils, for them to then bring in providers to their communities instead of having individuals travel out. We have been increasing the use of the benefit in that area.

On medical transportation, we have been undergoing a review of the benefit with first nations to come up with a number of system improvements. What was noted more recently in the budget is funding that is specific to supporting the Government of Nunavut with respect to its increased expenses relating to medical transportation for clients who are eligible for non-insured health benefits.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you for that clarification.

I also know that, unfortunately, there has to be a heavy reliance on service providers who are not indigenous. We have to rely on dental hygienists and dentists who are non-indigenous.

I have also been approached by Canadian-certified counsellors, who used to be able to provide mental health counselling and were paid through the non-insured health benefits program. The reason they reached out to me was that they had been removed from the list of those who can provide services under the non-insured health benefits program.

I wonder if you could provide us with an update as to the whole licensing or the regulation or the selection of who provides services to first nations, Métis and Inuit under the non-insured health benefits program.

[Valerie Gideon]

With respect to that particular situation, we will have to follow up with your office to understand exactly why individuals would be removed. I would say that while we have registration of providers if they are directly billing the program, when we are funding indigenous organizations to bring in counselling services there is greater flexibility in that context.

We will follow up with your office to see what we may be able to do.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Okay. Thank you.

[Gina Wilson, Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services]

I have one more thing. I was contacted recently by a group of therapists who had indicated that there were some adjustments in the province of Quebec. I don't know if that's the issue, but I was following up on that one. It could be related.