Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 5th, 2023

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's good to see you, Celeste and Mark.

I'm looking through the notes. When we're looking at aboriginal title, B.C. has played an integral role in both the Delgamuukw case and the Tsilhqot'in case. I'm wondering whether you could comment a little bit about what the restitution or the recognition of aboriginal title has meant to those nations. Has any kind of economic growth resulted from the recognition of aboriginal title for those two nations?

[Celeste Haldane]

It's very good to see you as well.

I think the economic component is integral. Of course, that comes out of Delgamuukw. Title lands have an inescapable economic component, which means that in part of the decision-making and part of having law-making authority and jurisdiction, we also need to have the ability to create our own economies, but at the same time be able to control those economies.

I know that the Tsilhqot'in have been working quite diligently on implementing their title, and of course have taken steps and measures and have entered into agreements and negotiations. I am not privy to exactly what's happening with regard to their negotiations and their implementation of title, but I do know that they are, again, coming at it from a very.... Of course, they have title, which means they have ownership and they have jurisdiction. I think that's really a key component, too, when we're looking at the restitution of land back.

In terms of the other nations that you mentioned, some are in the negotiations process and have been moving through the treaty negotiations, but they also have a number of economic development opportunities within their territories. Of course, they have a say and jurisdiction over how those developments will be undertaken.

I think that really underlines not just having the section 35 rights that have been recognized and affirmed by the Supreme Court of Canada. We also have two additional frameworks—the federal and provincial legislation and the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. That, again, provides another framework for reconciliation and restitution. To go back to an earlier question with regard to free, prior and informed consent, that comes out of not just case law—i.e., the duty to consult—but also the declaration.

I know that British Columbia is modernizing a number of our laws and policies but is doing it collaboratively with first nations in British Columbia. I think that's a really integral step when we're looking at how we are going to continue to build our futures together in ways that are meaningful for everyone. Some are in treaty negotiations and some are pursuing economic development opportunities. As Harold mentioned, we have the Major Projects Coalition, and they're doing excellent work within their communities.

It's about having a say over your territory and over resource development. Again, it's not necessarily about “no” but about how we get there, and how we get there together.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Celeste.

Just let me steer this conversation a little bit. In a lot of the talk that we've heard about land back, we've heard about stewardship. We've heard about protecting the resources when we talk about land and land back. What does it mean for the oceans and rivers that are so vital to British Columbia? Can you talk about what you think land back would mean for the protection of rivers and the ocean?

[Celeste Haldane]

Absolutely. I'm a Sparrow from Musqueam who grew up commercial fishing and spent pretty much my entire life on the waters and the ocean. That's an integral part, looking at not just land back. It's about how we have fair access to our other resources, i.e., marine resources and migratory species such as wildlife, salmon and birds. That is another component to land back, looking at, again, how we have control, decision-making, management decision-making, over our resources.

Again, it's going to take that fiscal investment that is going to be required. It's about building capacity in nations to be able to enforce their laws, enforce jurisdiction on their territories. That is a major gap right now. I think the guardians and some of the programs that are out there are excellent resources for communities to build that capacity, but I also think we need to go one step further. That is, how do we ensure that modern treaty nations or other first nations have the ability, similar to that of the governments of Canada and British Columbia, to enforce their laws, whether it's on land or the marine territories?

I think that's another integral conversation as land back and restitution continue to be studied.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Celeste, I only have about 30 seconds—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

You're done now.

We'll go now to Madame Gill, who will have two and a half minutes.

The two-and-a-half-minute rounds go quickly. Those of you who have been here before know that.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The issue of speed often comes up, and it could concern any of the stakeholders. We're talking about speed, which can often mean the risk of concluding agreements too quickly, but at the same time, there's the risk of not concluding them quickly enough.

Ms. Haldane, can you tell me why we need to hurry to conclude land restitution agreements?

[Celeste Haldane]

When you have the political will, which we do have, that alignment both federally and provincially in the province of B.C., you have to strike when the iron is hot. We have a number of policy changes, but, again, it's not about perfection. It's about building a relationship, a partnership, and moving forward. This is a little legalistic, but it's about having those opportunities for orderly renewals and being able to check in on your relationship. It's how a treaty, a constitutionally protected treaty, will continue to evolve and continue to breathe life into that partnership.

We do have some of those policy developments in the province. I think that needs to be a whole of government, a whole of the federal family, to implement that across the country, not just B.C.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Innes, would you like to answer that question?

[Larry Innes]

I would simply echo my colleague, Commissioner Haldane. The perfect should not be the enemy of the good in these scenarios.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Calla, you have my last 20 seconds.

[Harold Calla]

Circumstances change over time, and these all need to be living documents, in my view. It starts with the recognition of the right to title, and it starts with the recognition of self-government and that we're a long way from being able to say that Canada has fully implemented the right of self-government under section 35.

I think the principle is that you're going to recognize it. You have to stand up and say, “We believe in this. We're going to do it, and we're going to start here.” Where we end up is going to be a matter of process and negotiation. Someone once asked me when the negotiations with these people end. I said, “Never. When do they end with you?”

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We'll go now to Ms. Idlout for two and a half minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question for Celeste.

On the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, in 2021 the federal government passed the UNDRIP Act, which aims to bring Canada's laws in accordance with UNDRIP. Have you seen any meaningful difference in the way indigenous peoples have been engaged regarding land back since it became law in 2021?

[Celeste Haldane]

With regard to the treaty negotiations process in B.C., it has expedited negotiations but, again, there have been a number of policy shifts.

I would be remiss if I didn't state that not every ministry and agency has been perfect in adopting the whole-of-government approach, the UN declaration and the RRR policy we have in treaty negotiations. I would encourage those particular agencies. I think they are coming along, but the Department of National Defence, I believe, would have a vested interest in ensuring they are living up to their whole-of-government approach when it comes to land back and discussions about land back with indigenous partners. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans is one of those where.... Again, they've been undertaking a lot of work towards restitution. However, they seem to be a bit behind. When we're looking at a whole-of-government approach, everyone has to adopt the UN declaration.

As I stated earlier, the best way to operationalize the UN declaration is through a modern treaty, as well as by ensuring the sharing of jurisdiction and power. Vacating jurisdiction where the Crown needs to vacate jurisdiction is going to be integral. That's also part of implementing the UN declaration.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

That's the end of the two and a half minutes.

Colleagues, this takes us to just after 5:30. We have some committee business we need to get to, so I'd like to end the witness portion of the meeting now and go into—hopefully brief—committee business.

With that, I'd like to thank our witnesses. I know this was at least the second time we've tried bringing you together. I think all three of you were invited in the spring and were interrupted by votes. Again, today, we were interrupted by votes, but I appreciate your persistence and the value of the testimony you brought to us. If you have any additional thoughts you'd like to send to us, we take written briefs. You can send up to.... I always say 10 pages, but apparently this committee says five pages, so be very tight in your additional thoughts. If you want to push it a bit, we'll accept five-ish pages.

I want to thank each of you for being with us today and for your patience as we got through some House business around today's discussion.

I also want to give a shout-out to Mr. Lobb, who is here today with us on the Conservative side.

With that, colleagues, we'll suspend.

Madame Gill and Mr. Powlowski, if you're able to join us through the new link for the committee business, we'll get going as soon as we get everybody back. Thanks.

We're now suspended.

[Proceedings continue in camera]