Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 17th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Good afternoon. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to the 76th meeting of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs. We acknowledge that we meet on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

Pursuant to the Standing Orders, we're in a hybrid format today, with one witness who is online.

We're going to have two panels today.

Mr. Buffalo, we've started. If you want to turn on your video, we want to make sure your technology is working.

That's perfect. It's good to see you. Welcome.

For you specifically, Mr. Buffalo, because the others are here in the room, you are able to choose the language on your screen. There's either floor audio, which is whatever language is being used, or English or French. We want to get that set. We can't mute you, so you'll need to mute and unmute yourself. When it's your turn to speak, we'll get you to do that.

Now that we've started, there are no photos or screenshots allowed. I think we're good to go with that.

I'd like to welcome Mr. Stephen Buffalo of the Indian Resource Council.

We also have with us Amanda Simon and Albert Marshall of the National Aboriginal Land Managers Association.

Welcome to you.

That will be our first panel. We have about an hour, so we'll go until 6:05 or so.

I always like to start with our online guest. Just while we have the technology working, it's good to start with you.

I'll also mention that I'll keep track of time. You'll have five minutes for opening statements. When you're 30 seconds from the end of your time, I'll give you the yellow card, so start getting ready to wind up. When you reach the end of your allotted time, I'll give you the red card. Don't stop in mid-sentence, but do wind up your thoughts, and we'll go to the next person or the next round of questions.

With that, I think we have all our regular members here, except for Mr. Chandra Arya.

Welcome to our committee today.

Mr. Buffalo, I'll put five minutes on the clock. We're ready to go whenever you're ready.

[Stephen Buffalo, President and Chief Executive Officer, Indian Resource Council Inc.]

Thank you.

[Witness speaks in Cree]

[English]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to first acknowledge that I'm in Treaty 7 territory here in Calgary.

I want to thank the chair and committee members for the opportunity to speak today.

My name is Stephen Buffalo. I'm the president and CEO of the Indian Resource Council of Canada. Our organization represents over 130 first nations that have produced or have direct interests in the oil and gas industry. Our mandate is to advocate for federal policies that will improve and increase resource development opportunities for first nations.

Although our main focus is oil and gas, many of our members are engaged in solar, wind projects, transmission lines and carbon capture and are starting to look at equity opportunities in nuclear reactors and SMRs.

I'm sure members of the committee know that first nations have historically been excluded from economic opportunities in this country. We have had little say about the activities taking place on our lands even as they have diminished our aboriginal and treaty rights.

We want to resuscitate our economies, and land, of course, is quid pro quo for economic development. Our reserve population is growing, the fastest-growing population in Canada, but our lands are not growing. In fact, they are shrinking, especially our traditional lands, so this committee hearing is very important and very timely.

I know other presenters have spoken about the legal basis for land restitution to our communities, along with our treaties and most recently UNDRIP and the recommendations from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. We have made our case for land restitution time and time again, and Canadian law is on our side.

The problem is that the enforcement system is broken. Best efforts relating to the additions to reserve, the ATR policy, and the treaty land entitlement in the modern treaties, especially in B.C., are well intended, but the process is lengthy and very expensive.

For me, land restitution is a continuum. It should not be one size fits all. We have our reserve lands, which are shrinking by the day, and the increase in demand for housing infrastructure and development. There are many outstanding cases to add reserve lands and/or compensation based on what was agreed to in the treaties. This process must be concluded in a timely manner.

We also need to protect what little we have left, so land stewardship is very important to us. This is why we were very proactive in the site reclamation and site rehabilitation program and were able to secure a portion of the $1-billion federal grant specifically for abandoned and depleted wells on our land. To date, first nations have cleaned over 2,000 wells, and there are many more to go, especially with orphaned wells that do not have any owners.

Critics claim that the responsibility belongs to the owners, based on the “polluter pays” principle, but this is a ticking bomb. We can't wait for the polluters to do the right thing. Our people need their land restored as soon as possible.

In my community of Maskwacis we have old pipelines criss-crossing our lands, and we cannot build houses in these areas, so pipelines must be removed. Our elders have told us this much. We need the resources to finish this work.

We had a fiduciary trustee by the name of Indian Oil and Gas Canada, which is a special operating agency under Indigenous Services Canada. They were supposed to protect our reserve lands. Unfortunately they failed miserably in this regard. They were nowhere to be seen when we lobbied hard for the site rehabilitation program. They did not even have the data on these wells. We had to invest some money to get our own, working closely with data providers such as AssetBook and geoSCOUT. Now we know where the wells are and which ones need to be addressed.

Further, Indian Oil and Gas has failed to hold lessees accountable for their liabilities. It seems it protects industry more than it protects first nations, so currently we are working hard to transform Indian Oil and Gas Canada into a first nations-led regulator.

There are many initiatives currently in place in which indigenous people have partnerships, equity participation and industry on these lands, which we applaud, but a lot more work needs to be done.

I want to mention and commend the Government of Alberta for the Indigenous Opportunities Corporation, through which first nations have participation in projects in their traditional area.

I want to end by mentioning that our issue with resource revenue sharing is unfinished business. Our organization is lobbying hard to put this matter on the table. For me, resource revenue sharing and land restitution go hand in hand.

Thank you. I'd be happy to answer any questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you for those opening comments. You're right on the five-minute mark. Well done. We appreciate it.

Now we have Ms. Simon and Mr. Marshall.

Ms. Simon, I believe you'll be offering the opening comments. When you're ready, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Amanda Simon, Chair, National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association]

That's wonderful. Thank you, Chair.

Sekoh sewakwekon. Hello, everyone.

I want to begin by honouring and acknowledging the ancestral unceded Anishinabe Algonquin territory by offering our sacred medicines.

I want to thank the standing committee for the invitation to speak today on behalf of NALMA. We have had the opportunity to present several times in the past. We look upon this as an opportunity to promote awareness of raising professional capacity in first nation and Inuit lands management as well as to draw attention to the need for land restitution for the original inhabitants of this beautiful and wealthy country we call Canada.

My name is Amanda Simon, chair of NALMA and lands manager for the Mohawk Council of Kanesatake in the province of Quebec. Joining me today is Albert Marshall, Jr., lands manager from Eskasoni, Nova Scotia, and board director.

NALMA was officially formed in 2000 as a not-for-profit, non-political organization. NALMA is a technical organization driven by first nation land management professionals. We have a corporate membership representing eight regional lands associations across Canada. We have a membership of 236 first nations in Inuit communities at large. Our association comprises eight regional lands associations—Atlantic, Quebec and Labrador, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia and Nunavut. We are pleased to say that we are in discussions with land management professionals in Yukon and Northwest Territories, canvassing their interest in establishing a regional lands association and becoming members of NALMA.

Our members operate under various land regimes—namely, managing land under the Indian Act reserve lands and environment management program, or RLEMP; secondly, the framework agreement on sectoral self-government; and thirdly, self-government and full control in the management of lands. It is interesting to note that, specifically to our membership, they manage well over a million hectares of reserve lands. With the ongoing initiatives of additions to reserves, treaty land entitlements and specific claims, we expect this number to increase in the coming years.

Since April 2000, NALMA has made progress in providing opportunities for first nations to build capacity in first nation lands governance and management across Canada. NALMA's mandate is to provide first nation and Inuit land management professionals and other stakeholders with professional development, networking and technical support opportunities.

I want to thank Indigenous Services Canada for their outstanding partnership and financial support over the past 23 years. We have made significant progress in raising professional standards and capacity in land management. We've established a professional land management program that has certified 225 land managers in first nations across Canada. We deliver specialized training to 500 land management professionals annually. We've developed 30 land management course modules and tool kits, and established survey, land use planning and ATR environmental units. We undertook the Centre of Excellence for Matrimonial Real Property and were very instrumental in the establishment of the Indigenous Centre for Cumulative Effects.

I am sure during the process of this study that political views, court cases and studies have highlighted the unfairness and desecration of indigenous rights concerning land and land ownership. We believe the restitution of land means transferring jurisdictional laws, rights and wealth. It is essential, because it supports sovereignty, prosperity, opportunity and good health and well-being. In this regard, how can indigenous people in Canada reclaim their land through the restitution of lands?

My message for you today is from the grassroots, from an on-the-ground perspective. Land managers and communities have the challenging task of carrying out and upholding the expectations of community members and leadership. We must understand and implement processes and procedures in the land regimes that we operate—the Indian Act, the FNLMA and self-government.

Technically speaking, giving land back could be a challenging initiative for the federal government. However, it does not have to be if they commit to upholding their constitutional mandate to support indigenous communities in prosperity, opportunity and good health and well-being.

In conclusion, NALMA is a first nation-driven professional land management organization working towards improving professional capacity and ensuring quality land management to promote sustainable growth and prosperity within communities. Through NALMA's experience working directly in communities, our thoughts of restitution of land can be simplified by the federal, provincial, municipal and first nations governments' building a solid and productive relationship with a commitment to work together to share in the benefits of prosperity, opportunity, good health and well-being.

Nia:wen, and thank you for this opportunity to participate.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you so much for your opening comments.

We're ready to get right into our round of questions.

First up we have Mr. Vidal, who has six minutes.

Whenever you're ready, the floor is yours.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to all of our witnesses today for your opening comments.

Mr. Buffalo, I'm going to start with you. You talked about economic opportunities being a very important part of the work you do, and I know that's a big part of what your organization does. It's no secret in Canada that indigenous people face many challenges in health care, housing and education. You talked about that in your comments. I believe that economic opportunities are going to be a really, really huge part of solving some of the challenges that are faced by many of the communities in those issues I listed.

Can you speak a bit more about how the restitution of land and the associated economic opportunities can be directly linked to solving some of the health care, housing, education and other challenges that are faced by communities across the country?

[Stephen Buffalo]

Of course, as we look at the land bases that are now set through the Indian Act, there are opportunities and business development and...primarily resource extraction that is happening just off our communities. As long as we're a part of it, I think there's an opportunity to really start looking at investing in some of the social issues that are plaguing our communities. The hard part is under the Indian Act. I think that's the primary barrier, getting around the Indian Act and what we're told to do and what we're told not to do.

Here in the province of Alberta, we have the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation, which gives first nations an opportunity to participate in the natural resources sector and business deals that are happening within their territories. That's money that a community can now invest in these areas. Our land base might not grow, but at least we can start addressing some of these issues, where bureaucrats from Indigenous Services Canada are telling us how not to spend and how to spend money. This is at our discretion, and I think it is the first step in really trying to be proactive in these areas.

As long as we keep depending on the federal government under the Indian Act, we're not going to get anywhere. Identifying the land cases.... Really, it's up to the first nation to assert their own jurisdiction, create their own land laws and everything like that.

In the oil and gas sector, we have Indian Oil and Gas Canada, which is a horrible regulator. It causes more problems than it needs to. You can ask the Privy Council how many litigations there are against Indian Oil and Gas Canada for its failure to act.

When we assert our own jurisdiction, I think we can start taking care of ourselves and really be progressive in that way to take care of those social issues.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

You talked in your answer and also in your opening comments about the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation, and Saskatchewan has recently set up the same kind of organization. I don't remember the exact acronym, but it's very, very similar to the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation. Something we've talked about for a couple years is what the benefit of a similar type of organization would be at the federal level.

Would you mind speaking to that for a second, and say what you think the benefit might be of having a national indigenous opportunities corporation?

[Stephen Buffalo]

The AIOC's primary mandate was to backstop the provincial government guarantee on first nations' investing in some of these projects that are in their territory. Again, it's not cash; it's a backstop, so there's still some lending and liability there, but now you're part of the equation, more or less, and you're going to see revenues when the project is full, active and running.

From a federal level, that would be imperative. You know, we're talking about critical minerals that we need in order to try to get to net zero, and a lot of that is mining these critical minerals. We see the resources, and we see what kinds of revenues the provinces are seeing in doing that. At the federal level, it will definitely help first nations be less dependent on what's coming through their comprehensive funding agreement under the Indian Act.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

My time is getting short and I want to ask you one more quick question.

You talked about the lengthy processes around ATRs and other claim settlements, and some of those challenges. I grasp very clearly where you're coming from.

Can you flesh out, in about a minute, the frustrations, limitations or hindrances of those long claim processes when it comes to achieving some of the goals you set out?

[Stephen Buffalo]

There are bureaucrats under the land management act who hold back the process. Of course, the only ones who are really benefiting are somewhat.... That's just to say the lawyers see a lot of benefit from this, and it is painfully long. Some communities have invested in land through TLE and have an opportunity to create some sort of commercial development and see some revenues within the corporations they may develop.

However, it's imperative that they move things along. It's painfully long. By the time things are done, a lot of money has been lost. It's just so slow. That's the only thing.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you for that. I appreciate it.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time. We're going now to Mr. Battiste.

Before I turn it over to you, Mr. Battiste, I neglected to welcome Mr. Dreeshen.

You're such a familiar face, Earl, that I completely accepted you as one of our committee. It's good to see you here.

Mr. Battiste, you have six minutes.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

[Member spoke in Mi'kmaq]

I was telling Albert, as a Mi'kmaq speaker, “Welcome to this committee,” and I thanked him for being here.

I'm very glad to hear the presentation.

I'm wondering, Albert, whether you could start off by describing the challenges on reserve in acquiring land. Do you think there's adequate land available in many of the reserves across Canada for the housing needs our communities are dealing with?

[Albert Marshall Jr., Board Director, National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association]

There is not in our region. Take Eskasoni, for instance. We have 5,000 members with 8,900 acres to deal with. Out of those 8,900 acres, we could only use 13%. Basically, the rest of that is all bog, swamps and steep hills—practically unfeasible to build on.

Acquiring land is different in the Atlantic region, where we have to purchase our own land. We don't have any TLE process or specific claims that we're going through. All land we get in Atlantic Canada is either bought or donated by some kind individuals. Again, like the chief said, the ADR process is lengthy. There has to be more of them.

It's unfortunate that our projected population base wasn't properly formulated when they created reserves in Atlantic Canada, more specifically.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Albert, I'm wondering whether you can speak to—I know it has specifically impacted the communities of Eskasoni and Sipekne'katik—the centralization of the Mi'kmaq in the 1940s.

Could you give a bit of an explanation as to what that policy was and what the impact of it is today for the Mi'kmaq of those communities?

[Albert Marshall Jr.]

There was centralization in Nova Scotia back in the 1950s. Basically, individuals were ordered to leave their communities and surrounding areas forcibly—in most cases, violently. Everybody moved to either Sipekne'katik or Eskasoni, and there were members from other communities living in one community. It ended up being very intense.

It even happens today. If somebody moves into our community, they assume they're not from the community. The government tried to create unity with reservations, but it technically created separations.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you for that, Albert.

Do you think that centralization has impacted our community, in terms of the population growth of communities like Sipekne'katik and Eskasoni, which are running out of land because of the population forced into those communities? Can you tell us how it's impacting Eskasoni today in terms of the availability of land for housing?

[Albert Marshall Jr.]

Of course. It hinders a lot of communities in Eskasoni and prevents families from growing, because we don't have any more land base to put anybody else in.

I feel bad for people today. They have money, but they have no land to build on. As a land manager, I don't want to send them anywhere else, because we were forced on reserves, into these camps. Now we have to live in them to the best of our ability.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

It's interesting. We hear about the treaties all across Canada. To the best of your knowledge, did the Mi'kmaq treaties—the Peace and Friendship Treaties—ever cede any land when they were signed between 1725 and 1786?

[Albert Marshall Jr.]

No. The Mi'kmaq never ceded any land to the government. It was just the Peace and Friendship Treaties.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you.

Ms. Simon, do you want to add anything that could give us a bit of context on the difficulties in acquiring land for homes around first nations all across Canada?

[Amanda Simon]

Acquiring land, I think, is a very difficult process across the country, regardless of what province you come from. Our territorial lands are taken over constantly.

When we go through a process of ATR—which, again, is an arduous and lengthy process, although we're striving to make that process a bit easier—it's very difficult for first nations across this country to buy land. If they buy the land, they now have to go through the process of adding it to their reserve through this ATR process.

The issue is there is not enough capacity for the first nations when it comes to the ATR process. It's a process that can take between three years on a good day and 10 to 15 years on a bad day. During that time, what do you think happens to the land that was purchased? It can go through many issues. It's all good and fine to buy that land, but then the process to add it to your reserve and do something with it is almost impossible.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We're going now to Madame Gill.

You have six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Buffalo, Ms. Simon and Mr. Marshall, thank you for appearing here today. Your remarks are really interesting.

I was going to follow up on the question asked by my colleague Mr. Battiste.

You used the word “difficult” several times. You said that, no matter where in the territory you are, you face essentially the same difficulties.

I imagine that there are still distinctions to be made depending on the territory. You're from the Mohawk community. I know it also has its own particularities, especially since you cross borders, which are always arbitrary.

I'd like you to tell us more about the difficulties you're facing, and to make some recommendations. You mentioned time, which always works against us, but if there are several other difficulties, we'd like you to tell us what they are so we can add them to our report.