Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2023

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

You talked about legitimacy earlier. It's very important.

You speak of yourself as Métis. What arguments support the feeling that this bill is positive for you?

[Cassidy Caron]

This bill is the culmination of the last 40 years of implementing the promise of section 35 to Métis. There have been, as I stated, from 1982 up until just this past 2023, many promises that tell us we are going to get there and we are going to achieve self-government, which is an inherent right for the Métis nation.

However, time and time again.... One of our Métis rights lawyers talks about Charlie Brown and Lucy when they are going to play football: Charlie Brown goes to kick the football, but Lucy pulls the football away and Charlie Brown falls on his bum. That has happened to the Métis nation over the past 40 years. We get so close to implementing all of this work and then we “get Lucied”, as is said, and it gets taken away from us.

This piece of legislation is something that is necessary for us to continue to move forward. We really do hope that we don't get Lucied on this piece of legislation.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's the end of the two and a half minutes.

Next I will go to Ms. Idlout for her two and a half minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik, Chair.

I understand that, back in September 2021, the MMF withdrew its membership with MNC over its concerns about the application of the citizenship criteria. I wonder if you could help in trying to dispel some of the myths about citizenship.

If a strong organization like MMF is saying that they challenge citizenship criteria, and you're talking about the legitimacy of it and the objectively verifiable mechanisms that are being used, I wonder if you could take this time to help explain what it is that you actually do so that you can help dispel some of those misunderstandings that exist right now.

[Cassidy Caron]

I want to once again say that all of our Métis governments apply the 2002 definition of Métis citizen that has been voted on and approved by the Métis National Council.

On the processes that are implemented, each of our Métis governments has their own citizenship registries. They have their processes to ensure all of the genealogy and the documents required to meet that definition to become a Métis citizen. That is done within each of our Métis governments.

The auditing processes that have taken place include the Canadian Standards Association's auditing of those Métis registries and the processes.

Once again, I want to highlight the work that Jean Teillet has done in the report for the University of Saskatchewan to highlight how strong these Métis registries are. I would recommend that the committee take a look at that report as well.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Very quickly, one of the other concerns that have been brought to me is that this is a form of identity theft. I wonder if you could help explain that it's not.

[Cassidy Caron]

It's just not. Métis people are recognized as one of the three indigenous peoples within section 35. There are Métis, first nations and Inuit. We know who we are. We know where we come from. We have a history. We have rights. We are the Métis nation.

This piece of legislation simply affirms the right to self-government for these three Métis governments, which have been around—some of them—for close to 100 years, doing this work.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Colleagues, we do have time for the final part of this round, which is five minutes for this side and that side.

We'll jump right now to Mr. Schmale for five minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going to split my time with Gary Vidal.

President Caron, if you don't want to deal with him, just feel free to talk out your answers.

I want to drill back down to what Gary was talking about in terms of the benefits and how that associates with the membership in, say, Saskatchewan—as he heard from his members in northern Saskatchewan.

Do you understand that to be true? If you are not part of, say, Métis Nation-Saskatchewan, could there be some questions in terms of getting some of the benefits that are owed?

[Cassidy Caron]

First and foremost, Bill C-53 is not about benefits. It is about the internal governance of these Métis governments.

Citizens have the opportunity to choose who represents them and who delivers programs and services to them. If an individual is satisfied with the governmental structure of the federal government and the provincial government that currently represent them, and they choose not to register as a Métis citizen of Saskatchewan, that is their choice.

If they choose to be represented by the Métis Nation-Saskatchewan, again, that is their choice.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Okay. Just to clarify, let's say they are in Alberta. They belong to a Métis settlement, and it doesn't matter which one, but they choose not to join the Métis Nation of Alberta. I know it's not about benefits, but if the Métis Nation of Alberta is the governing body or the one that deals with the majority of Métis in Alberta, would there be risks that those belonging only to a settlement would lose their benefits?

[Cassidy Caron]

No, because there is no pie whereby the Métis Nation of Alberta is taking three-quarters of this pie and the settlements are taking this quarter. There are different ways and different approaches to doing that.

It's important, again, to reference 15.05 of the MNA's self-government agreement. It says:

Nothing in this Agreement impacts or affects the rights, jurisdiction, powers, or responsibilities of the Métis Settlements General Council or a Métis Settlement, including the ownership of Métis Settlement lands, as recognized in Alberta's Métis Settlements Act....

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Okay. That's perfect.

[Cassidy Caron]

It's in there.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I just needed clarification, because we weren't sure. I appreciate that.

I am going to yield my time to Gary Vidal.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

I'm going to come at this one more time, because I want to be certain, President.

I spoke to people in Saskatchewan last week, who told me that, when we talk about section 35 rights in the context of health, for example—health benefits—if you're a member of a first nation and you have to receive dialysis, for example, in the city of Saskatoon and you live in northern Saskatchewan, you have travel benefits and you have some of these other things through the appropriate programs.

As a Métis individual in northern Saskatchewan, you are covered by Saskatchewan Health, but the MN-S is looking to add benefits that would be the same—for travel if you have to go for dialysis and those kinds of benefits, but they say they would not receive those unless they chose to be a member of the MN-S, in this case.

You can hear where I am coming from. The rights and privileges, or the right to choose your membership is less than a free right if you're going to have a gun held to your head in the sense that some of the benefits you.... Are they misunderstanding this? I guess that would be the other option. Are they understanding the truth of this?

I'll let you clarify that.

[Cassidy Caron]

I don't think I can answer that question, quite honestly, because it's hard to comprehend. I'm going to Saskatchewan right after this, and I'd love to find those individuals and have that conversation with them, so that I could potentially clarify that with them.

Once again, members, I want to redirect you to the legislation, and what is in this legislation and what is not in this legislation. Benefits are not in this legislation.

I would love to talk to you about the fact that the Métis nation does not even have health benefits right now. We do not have non-insured health benefits, but this committee has actually provided a recommendation to government to negotiate health benefits for the Métis nation. We look forward to a time when that happens, but at this point in time this legislation does not talk about benefits. It is just about the internal governance of these three Métis governments.

I just continue to urge this committee to remember what is in and what is not in this piece of legislation.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

Very quickly, because I think I'm nearly out of time, this has taken a long time. It started back in 2018. There's been a long process. It's gotten delayed many times through many processes.

Can you just speak to the delays? What do you think has caused all of these delays from 2018 to when the legislation finally got introduced in June 2023?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'd say be brief, please, with a couple of sentences, and then we do need to move to our final questioner.

[Cassidy Caron]

The recognition is that this piece of legislation has been longer delayed than just since 2018. It has been delayed since 1982.

Once again, simply put, it is time.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Now we'll go to Mr. Battiste for the final five minutes of this panel.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you for that.

I know those questions kind of blur the lines between section 35 rights and subsection 91(24) rights in Indian Act in a way that it was really tough to answer.

Chief, to the best of your reading of this legislation, does this legislation talk at all about any of those rights that people are saying are a pie that's going to be split, or is there any kind of discussion of those section 35 rights that have not been proven by the courts in various court cases?

[Cassidy Caron]

No. Again, I want to refer the members to each of the Métis self-government agreements. Nothing in this agreement or the implementation legislation extinguishes, defines, creates, modifies, limits, prejudices, restricts or surrenders any Métis right.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

One of the things that people often talk.... Sometimes we come into committee, and we think that we hold indigenous people to a higher standard than we hold our own democracies. We have our opposition—we have multiple oppositions—and as Métis leaders there are going to be disputes and disagreements, but throughout this process, we've talked a lot about how Canada moves forward with this once agreements are done.

Can you talk to me about the ratification process that might be coming for the Métis and how they would ratify these agreements internally?

[Cassidy Caron]

No, I can't speak to that. I'm sorry.