Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 30th, 2023

[Martin Reiher]

Thank you.

The position we adopt with our partners is that it's for them to choose. Individuals can decide to become members of these organizations. There's a strict process to ensure that only those entitled are accepted. That's the basis of their choice. Who will represent them depends on who they want to represent them.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We're going to go to Mr. Vidal.

Mr. Vidal, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm sorry. I need to dispense with something. I gave notice of a motion the other day. I think we have agreement on this, so we can do this very quickly, hopefully.

There's a statutory requirement for the ministers to appear within four weeks of the supplementary estimates being tabled in the House. I think we have an agreement that we'll give an extension of some time here, rather than what's in my motion, and we can all agree on this.

I'm going to read my motion as amended. I reads, “That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs invites the Minister of Indigenous Services Canada, the Minister for Crown-Indigenous Relations, and the Minister of Northern Affairs to appear before the Committee prior to rising for Christmas to discuss the Supplementary Estimates (B), 2023-24, and that the meeting be televised.

I've taken out that hard stop of December 7 to free up the minister next week.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Is there any discussion on that?

There isn't. Okay, we'll go right into the vote.

(Motion as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

You still have four minutes on the clock.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Chair. I'll cede the rest of my time to Mr. Schmale.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Gary.

Thank you, officials.

There is a point of clarification we're working through, and it has been brought up a few times in the testimony over the past few weeks. What would change once this legislation passes, given the fact that Bill C-92 is already an avenue for Métis governments to have control over their children and family services?

[Martin Reiher]

The first change would be that these Métis governments would be recognized as indigenous governments for the collectivities they represent. Obviously, the act would also recognize the inherent rights of these collectivities.

Second, there would be a process in place for future approval of treaties.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

That said, with some of the concerns we heard from a few of the Métis settlements and a few others, there is nothing that would stop any other group or organization from proceeding in the same fashion as MNA, MNO, MN-S or others. Is that correct?

[Martin Reiher]

That's right. The approach we would take would be to sit down with our partners and co-develop with them an approach geared toward achieving their vision of self-determination once we start discussions of that nature. Nothing in this bill or in the eventual treaties would prevent other groups from pursuing a similar approach.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I'm sure you've been following the committee quite regularly as we discuss this. There were some Ontario chiefs who came in to testify. I asked a similar question to the minister about the land issue that was brought up a few times in testimony. If the self-government bill, Bill C-53, passes, and I know a treaty is next, could this also proceed without treaty, or is treaty the next logical step after that? Do you get my question?

[Martin Reiher]

I'm not sure. I'll try to answer.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

You're not sure. I'm not sure I understand what I just said either.

[Martin Reiher]

As I said in answering a previous question, our relationship with our partners is evolving, so we evolve together. We work together on the path towards self-determination. The next step that Canada and these three organizations have agreed to pursue is the negotiation of a treaty on core governance, which is along the same lines as the agreements signed in February, but as treaties. That is the next step.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

For the Métis settlements, their concern, again, is that if Bill C-53 passes and receives royal assent and it happens, and a treaty proceeds and gets approved, and those kinds of things, then it would neither stop Fort McKay from coming forward to work on the same process—and I want to be clear—nor stop anyone from choosing between one or the other to represent them. Is that correct so far? Could they still be a member of—I'll pick randomly—Fort McKay?

Okay, we see a nod yes. Oh, I'm sorry; maybe we don't. I shouldn't out you like that. I'll wait for Martin to answer.

Could they be a member of both? I guess that was my follow-up question.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'll just say that we are at the end of this question. We'll have a brief answer, please, from whoever can answer it, and then we'll move to the next member.

[Martin Reiher]

I think the answer would be that it depends on what these organizations decide when they determine their own rules, but theoretically it is a possibility.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Mr. McLeod, you're next for five minutes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to go back to the discussion I was having with the minister regarding due diligence to make sure everything is in order when it comes to enrolment.

We heard from some of the first nations that presented to us that they were concerned about the ability of some of the Métis governments and some of their members to be able to trace their ancestry to certain communities. It was quite clear that some of the first nations believe that some of these communities didn't exist, especially when it comes to Ontario.

I come from the Northwest Territories. We know where every Métis community existed prior to the scrip, prior to the treaty. I'm sure Mr. Viersen can do the same for Alberta.

We don't seem to have people who are able to do that—or at least I haven't seen it—for Ontario. Is this something that the government traced? Has the government confirmed that the communities did exist, and their location, and all the information around that?

[Martin Reiher]

Mr. Chair, I'll ask Mr. Schintz to answer the question.

[Michael Schintz]

I know that our Métis government partners, when they've been up here as witnesses, spoke about this process better than we can, because, really, the Métis governments are responsible for maintaining the registries. Those registries rely on, in the case of Ontario, seven historic Métis communities. Those registries are audited by an independent third party.

While the agreement that was signed in February of this year and the legislation don't explicitly recognize those seven historic Métis communities, there is an acknowledgement in the appendix to the 2023 agreement that says the Province of Ontario and the MNO jointly acknowledge and recognize those seven historic communities.

We rely on that work of the MNO. We rely on the MNO to maintain the registry. We rely on the auditing to confirm that the Powley test has been met, and we respect the jurisdiction of our partners to do that work.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Also, I think that as committee members, we expect the government to verify that everything is done in order. I know that in the Northwest Territories it's a requirement to submit your family tree. You have to trace down to what community you come from, how long you've been there, how long your family has been there and if they were there before the scrip was signed or the treaty was signed.

On the claim that I belong to, we have to sign off as traditional Métis and the government has to inspect all our records, so I'm hoping that there's some comparison with what we're going through to what, under this bill, the members will also go through.

I do have another question, though, regarding consultation.

It's a little confusing. There's no doubt that consultation is important, and I'm certainly one who would say that loudly. It must take place if one indigenous government could potentially impact another indigenous government's rights. This legislation is creating a framework and is recognizing the rights of three Métis governments. Is there a duty to consult, to simply recognize that another indigenous government has the right to govern themselves?

[Martin Reiher]

Thank you for the question.

It is our assessment that the scope of these agreements and of the treaties that will be entered into will be limited to core governance, and therefore it's unlikely that it would affect.... The mere recognition of an indigenous government, as is done in this legislation, does not impact, in our view, the rights of other collectives, and if in the future the treaties have the potential to affect rights of other collectives, there will be a consultation on these treaties.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's the end of that round.

Now, colleagues, we'd be very hard pressed to get in a full fourth round. I also know that there are some members who have indicated that they have flights and that they would like to end now and head to the airport. I'm just going to put the question to everyone, because I haven't had a chance to consult with those online or with Ms. Idlout.

Are we good if we end the meeting at this point?

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I want to ask questions too.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's the end of the round, and we wouldn't have time—