Evidence of meeting #86 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was treaties.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Okay. I don't have much time, but I do want to ask you a few more questions.
My time ran out the last time. My last question was about land. We talked about the fact that some treaties don't involve land. Do you see this treaty involving land?
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Okay.
Going back to the parliamentary approval again, those were some of the concerns that the Ontario chiefs were talking about. That's why I was trying to get you to lock down on a commitment towards some kind of amendment for that.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
Look, I think I have worked with most of you individually, especially on your side of the aisle, Jamie, and I think you can appreciate that I am quite forthright and straightforward in the way I address things. When I say I will look at every single amendment that's put forward and I will give it due consideration, I really do mean that, and we will work together in collaboration to get to a position that we can all accept. I think we're very open to amendments that are coming forward from all members.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
Minister, we were told that we had one hour with you. We're two minutes away from that one hour. I'm hoping you can indulge us for an extra three minutes so we can get to our full last questions from Mr. Battiste for five minutes.
Okay. With your indulgence, thank you so much.
Mr. Battiste, the floor is yours for five minutes.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
Thank you for that, Minister.
We've talked about how we're trying to be consistent with UNDRIP, especially article 33, which gives nations the ability to determine who their own membership is. Is Bill C-53 consistent with UNDRIP as written? Can you talk a bit about some of the things that we did put in place to make sure that we are consistent with UNDRIP?
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
UNDRIP is, as Gary mentioned earlier, something that we worked on and that this committee worked on leading up to 2019 and 2021. In a world where we're in the process of implementing UNDRIP at every departmental level, as a whole of government, it's very important that the legislation we bring forward is in line with the principles of UNDRIP. It's essential that we recognize what self-determination looks like and what it means for governments to dictate and to control matters. We're now in a generation and in an era where, for self-determination, it is the nations and the people impacted who will make those decisions. I strongly believe this bill does that.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
Thank you, Minister.
Membership aside, on the ability to look at criteria of how you determine your own citizenship in the very distinctive aboriginal communities of first nations, Métis and Inuit, there's been a lot of discussion and a lot of fear that first nations have brought to this table. They said that this could potentially impact land or resources in the future. They argued that every single treaty signed had something to do with land or resources and that there was push-back on it.
Can you elaborate on what you said earlier about land not being part of the contemplation of the treaties under this legislation? Can you give us a sense of what these treaties are about?
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
I indicated earlier that the treaties are quite narrow in scope. They essentially deal with notions of membership, citizenship, leadership selection and internal administration. I think Martin elaborated that they would include things like what the fiscal frame would be, how the administration would look and what the constitution would be. I think those are the matters being contemplated.
Absolutely, harvesting or land rights are not part of the treaties, and it's quite clear within the text of this bill.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
Thank you very much, Minister.
Since we had this discussion, a lot of the first nations testified that it's unfortunate, within the Indian Act, that there's a second-generation cut-off. Is there any wiggle room in it so that you can report back to this committee on progress to make sure that we're looking at article 33 in UNDRIP for the first nations as well?
November 30th, 2023 / 4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
I understand Minister Hajdu has already started a consultation in that regard, and I think that will be very instructive for us as we move forward. I was part of Bill S-6 a number of years ago, when we expanded it. I heard from a range of people. The final message for us was that they need to control their membership and to be able to define who their citizens and their members are. It's not up to the federal government to dictate that, especially given the history.
I think the consultations will be very instructive in terms of how we move forward.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
Thank you, Minister.
That concludes our first hour.
Just so the members know, we're not going to start a fresh second round; we're going to do a continuation. We'll get into the third and fourth rounds, and those will be five, five, two and a half, two and a half, five and five minutes. That's the sequence we'll go through until we get to the end.
I will suspend very briefly so that anyone who wants to thank the minister can do so. I will replenish my tea, and then we will resume the meeting.
I ask those online to not go away. We will be back in just a minute or two. For the moment, we're suspended.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
We're back in session. Once again, there can be no pictures and no screenshots—just the memories.
We're going to carry on. I also neglected, in my opening comments, to welcome everybody who's joining us today. It's great to see a very full audience. Thank you for making time. I know that many of you have been here often, and it's great to see you.
Mr. Sidhu, thank you for joining us as well.
Let's jump right into the second hour of our panel now. We'll aim to end no later than 5:45 so that we can get members off to their flights.
First off, we have Mr. Vidal, who has the floor for five minutes.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
4:55 p.m.
A voice
It's going to be Mr. Zimmer first.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
Thank you, everybody.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
A National Post article came out today, which we heard about in the House. It said, “Ontario Indigenous group seeks judicial review of carbon tax”, and it went on to say:
An Ontario Indigenous group has launched a legal challenge against the Liberals' carbon tax, arguing it discriminates against people who live on reserve.
Grand Chief Abram Benedict, who holds the group’s environment portfolio and is also Grand Chief of Akwesasne....
“The government has boasted that Canadians will pay a carbon tax, but through the rebates, through the subsidies they will actually receive more than...they have paid. That doesn't ring true in First Nations communities,” he said.
In the court filing, the group argues that technologies like electric vehicles or heat pumps are not only unavailable, but unworkable in many Indigenous communities....
Benedict said his group has been talking to the government about changes to the carbon tax regime for some time—
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
Mr. Zimmer, I'm sorry, but I'm going to stop the clock for a second. I want to say that it is important that we make the questions relevant to—
5 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
Okay. I will restart the clock. I just wanted to make sure we were on Bill C-53.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
I'm just about there.
Benedict said his group has been talking to the government about changes to the carbon tax regime for some time, but negotiations were going nowhere with officials offering nothing.
He said his group doesn't want to be taking the issue to court, but the government left them no choice.
This is the reason we brought forward the motion last week. With this important development today, I would like to move to resume debate on my motion of November 7, which states,
That pursuant to standing order 108(2), given that [the] Ontario Grand Chief, Abram Benedict of the Akwesasne First Nation says the carbon tax is an unfair policy for Indigenous communities, that the committee undertake a study of five meetings, to examine the impact of the carbon tax on first nations[, Inuit and Métis] communities across Canada, that the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations and the Minister of Indigenous services appear, and that the committee seek additional resources in order to accommodate these meetings.
I've spoken with Ms. Gill about an amendment she wants to put forward, and she might want to speak to that now, Mr. Chair.
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
To your point, the motion is order. The clock is still running, but we will dispense with this motion. However, I do have a speaking list already.
Mr. Battiste put up his hand, and then, Madame Gill, if you would like, I can get you on my speaking list next.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
If the committee has decided that we're going to go into committee business, it might be preferable to go in camera to discuss it, if the Conservatives are done. I think it's important for us to have—
5 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
It takes too much time, and we brought it forward in public before.
