Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 13th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Good afternoon, everyone. It's good to be back for meeting number 92. I call this meeting to order.

We are here today to do clause-by-clause on Bill C-53, an act respecting the recognition of certain Métis governments in Alberta, Ontario and Saskatchewan, to give effect to treaties with those governments and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

Now that we're in session, I'd like to remind everybody that there are no screenshots and no photos allowed.

I'd like to give a big welcome to everybody who has come to see us today, all the members of the public who are here. Welcome.

As always, welcome back to our officials. We appreciate your being here again today.

(On clause 8)

Colleagues, when we left off, we were on clause 8, and I had Mr. Schmale on top of the speaking list from the last meeting.

I'll turn it over to Mr. Schmale.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I appreciate the opportunity to continue to work through clause 8 to see if we can come to a consensus here at the table. I want, first of all, to give a shout-out to my colleague Gary Vidal for his work on trying to get something together that we can propose to the committee for potential consideration and a subsequent vote. I do want to give compliments to the NDP and the Bloc as well for their feedback on this amendment. I was very impressed with the level of engagement that has taken place.

It seems that we are stuck on clause 8. As I said right from the beginning, the goal here was to take this piece of legislation and recognize some of the comments that were made by Métis groups, first nations groups and many others, and to try to work towards a solution that would ease the concerns of those groups but also support, encourage and really bring the spirit of this legislation to fruition through the adoption of it.

It's been a good go. We obviously don't have the resources the government and the team behind it have, but I think that through the work of Gary, Arnold, Bob, Marilène and Lori, we've come up with something that might be acceptable to people at the table. I'm interested to hear what the partners will think as well. Hopefully, we can get consensus on this and move forward to start tackling some of the other clauses that are here, but it is very important that we get this one right.

For those who are just joining us, that's why it was tough to move past clause 8 and start with the other ones, because a lot of what clause 8 was about set the structure for much of what is in this piece of legislation. In order to really vote on the others, we have to know that there's a solid clause 8, which my friend Mr. Vidal will get to very shortly. I hope it will be acceptable to the governing side and maybe we can reach unanimous consent through that. It is a change that I hope recognizes the concerns and also supports and encourages the spirit of this bill.

I will probably wait to speak until after Mr. Vidal. I look forward to that debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thanks, Mr. Schmale.

Procedurally, I'd like to go through where we are. I have no more speakers on clause 8, which would then move us to a discussion on CPC-3.2. We do have an amendment that was put forward by Mr. Vidal. It has been distributed to all members, so it is in order. The challenge we have is that, because of the way they come in and where they fall within the bill, we need to deal with CPC-3.2 first. We have to find out if the member wants to move it, but if CPC-3.2 is moved, debated and then adopted, then Mr. Vidal's amendment—reference number 12796449—cannot be moved due to a line conflict. That's the context for the debate that's about to happen.

I'm going to call Mr. Viersen to see if he wants to move CPC-3.2.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Well, Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

There's a question. Is it a point of order, Ms. Idlout, or do you want Mr. Viersen to...?

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I want to ask a quick question before he makes his motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Is that okay, Arnold?

Okay, Ms. Idlout, the floor is yours.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you so much.

First of all, I need to acknowledge that, as promised, the Conservatives and I did sincerely try to work together on something we could agree on. Unfortunately, because of 3:30 p.m. coming too quickly, we weren't able to agree on the amendment. I've been trying to work with my limited team to make sure that I submit an amendment that we can discuss.

I don't know if I've missed the deadline. I have two versions of an amendment that I'm still trying to pick from to send to the clerk to make sure that...because it's also related to clause 8, and I wonder what the procedural questions are.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

You are able to move an amendment at any point when you have the floor—not from a point of order, but when you have the floor—and it needs to be in writing. The only requirements are having the floor and having it in writing. Then the amendment would be accepted and we can look at where it needs to go.

The other comment is that once it's received in writing, I would need to take some time with my team here to review it to make sure it is in order and there is no line conflict. We look at those kinds of technical details.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Can we suspend for a few minutes?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Is that what you're asking?

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Okay, we've had a request to suspend for a few minutes.

Why don't we take five minutes? We'll suspend and I'll call the meeting back at 4:50.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Before you suspend, Chair, we have a great gallery here, so if I could just get your leniency, I want to give a shout-out to a couple of constituents of mine back there, including Mike Perry. He's a lawyer—don't hold that against him—with the MNC. He ran against me in 2015. Clearly, the one with more charm won.

Anyway, I just wanted to give him a shout-out. There are other constituents of mine there, as well. I don't want to leave them out. I just wanted to say hello and thanks for being here.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

If anybody else has anybody they need to acknowledge, let me know after we come back from the suspension.

Okay, we're going to suspend for five minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Ms. Idlout, thank you for your amendment.

I'm going to lay out how we'll proceed, hopefully in a way that makes sense to everybody.

We're now on CPC-3.2, which is Mr. Viersen's amendment. If that amendment is adopted, line conflicts would exist for the new NDP amendment—I'll use the reference number, 12805860—which was just distributed to members. If CPC-3.2 is adopted, there would also be a line conflict with the new CPC motion by Mr. Vidal, which is 12796449.

Because of the time they were received and the order of the legislation, we'll be dealing with CPC-3.2 first, which is Mr. Viersen's amendment. If that one is adopted, then there will be line conflicts. If it's not adopted, then we would move to the new NDP one, which is reference number 12805860. Then we can proceed to the new CPC amendment by Mr. Vidal, which is reference number 12796449. Then we would move to NDP-4.1, which was an original one that was submitted. That's the sequencing.

The first question will be for Mr. Viersen.

Would you like to move CPC-3.2?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This amendment is just around changing the word “collectivity” to “community”. I addressed this at length in a previous meeting. I think I'll get to make this argument multiple more times because I just sent in a draft to ask if we can change that word across the entire bill.

I don't want to cause a line conflict with Mr. Vidal's amendment, which is much more substantial, so at this point I will not be moving this amendment.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We will go to the next one, which is the new NDP amendment that was just distributed. It's reference number 12805860.

I'll turn the floor over to Ms. Idlout to see if she would like to move that amendment.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

First of all, I just want to reiterate that I really appreciate the effort that Gary and Jamie made in trying to work together on amending clause 8 so that we do respect the wishes of the Métis nations that would be recognized in the columns. We really did try very hard to come to an agreement. We weren't able to.

I also appreciate the whole committee for allowing me to submit this in writing a few minutes ago.

My proposed amendment adds clarity, hopefully, about whom this applies to. I also hope it helps to address the concerns that were brought by Mr. Vidal about the wording and how “Indigenous governing body” could be interpreted in different ways in different pieces of legislation or could be interpreted in the same way in different pieces of legislation.

What this amendment tries to do is make it clear that what we mean by “Indigenous governing body” is that it applies to this legislation.

Qujannamiik.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Does anyone want to speak to Ms. Idlout's amendment?

Otherwise, we'll move to a vote.

Mr. Viersen.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

I want to confirm that this will not.... Mr. Vidal's amendment starts at line 16, so this will not cause a line conflict.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's correct. Ms. Idlout's amendment could be adopted, as could Mr. Vidal's.

Are we ready to vote?

Mr. Battiste.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Can we ask the officials what they think of the language in terms of what—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

You're able to put that question to the officials, absolutely.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Can you give us a sense of what the language is like and what you think this may impact? Does it improve this? Does it make it clearer?