Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 5th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Shall the bill as amended carry?

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chair, I want to make sure I understand where we are procedurally, because everything happened so fast, what with the interpretation delay. If I understand correctly, you just asked if the committee wants to adopt the bill. If that's the case, I'd like to request a recorded vote, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We will have a recorded vote.

(Bill C-53 as amended agreed to: yeas 7; nays 1)

Shall the chair report the bill as amended to the House?

Mr. Battiste, go ahead.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Before we get to that final piece, I want to make sure that we thank the presidents of the Métis, who have shown up for every single meeting. They've been here throughout, helping guide us through this legislation.

I want to make sure you know the depth of gratitude the members of this committee have for your continued guidance and wisdom. We didn't always get the results we wanted, but this was a process in which we benefited from your being here. Thank you. I wanted to acknowledge all of your hard work to get us to where we are in this, before we move forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you, Mr. Battiste.

Shall the chair report the bill as amended to the House?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[An hon. member]

On division.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Shall the committee order a reprint of the bill as amended for the use of the House at report stage?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

With that, we have concluded our review of Bill C-53.

Thank you to each of the members and to those who have substituted.

Thank you to our officials. As did Mr. Battiste, I'd like to thank all the members of the Métis organizations, the Métis nations of Alberta, Saskatchewan and Ontario, for their dedication and input into this very important piece of legislation.

Colleagues, I have two things before we adjourn. Mr. Zimmer would like to speak, and then I want to quickly go to the travel discussion.

Mr. Zimmer, the floor is yours.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to resume debate on the motion that I brought forward last week, especially considering that the member for the Northwest Territories is with us today and considering also a recent statement by the deputy premier of the Northwest Territories. We mentioned Premier R.J. Simpson previously.

These are the comments by the deputy premier:

“I get that people are a bit frustrated and anxious,” she said. “I think a lot of people have some frustration about the fact that we are recently, in the last few weeks here, into a very particularly cold season. People are using more heating fuel now.”

“The cost of heating fuel is itself volatile, and that’s not something that I have any control over, it’s only the tax on top of that,” she added.

In that spirit—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Mr. Zimmer, can I interrupt just for a second? I apologize for this.

I should have offered to our officials that if they'd like to leave the table, we're beyond Bill C-53 now, so I don't want to hold them here for this.

Please feel free to make your exit. If you want to stay, you're more than welcome to. You're like family here. If you want to go, I will make you that offer.

[Michael Schintz]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'll turn it back to you, Mr. Zimmer.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Those were the comments by Caroline Wawzonek, the deputy premier of the Northwest Territories.

I'll read the motion again for the room.

That, given that the Premier of the Northwest Territories has requested a complete exemption from the Carbon Tax for his jurisdiction, the Committee invite the Premier of the Northwest Territories, R.J. Simpson, to appear on this request for Carbon Tax exemption and the challenges Northwest Territories faces with the cost of living, and that the committee report to the House that it calls on the government to immediately carve out Northwest Territories from the Carbon Tax.

I will reiterate this in the spirit that it appears the legislature in Northwest Territories is going to move forward with their own. This is a real opportunity for us to have their backs and to really back them up on their legislation rather than coming in and saying that Ottawa knows best and blocking them from doing so.

I'll put that before the committee to discuss, and I look forward to the conversation.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Ms. Rempel Garner, you're first on my speaking list.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I strongly support this motion. The way the government has approached carve-outs to the carbon tax is inequitable and, frankly, against the spirit of nation building.

Also, it ignores the valid concerns of many first nations communities across the country that are reliant upon different types of heating fuel and may be facing challenges outside of and greater than looking at ways to, let's say, install a heat pump. There are communities across the country that do not have clean drinking water. I find the way the government approached the Atlantic Canadian carve-out to the carbon tax—and then saying nothing for the rest of the country—a blatant piece of disgusting vote-grabbing.

The reality as well, Chair, and the reason why I would encourage colleagues to support this, is that when we are looking at the issue of climate change and coming up with solutions to address that in the country, the government's present carbon taxation policy does not reduce greenhouse gas emissions. It doesn't work, and the fact that there's such a dogmatic adherence to it is actually stifling policy innovation in other areas.

When we do have subnational governments that are looking at opposing it.... Canada is not Germany. It's not a small European country that is temperate. We're a large, cold, natural resource-based country that is also dealing with nation-to-nation conversations with first nations and indigenous persons, and the carbon tax is a failed and flawed policy instrument as it is designed right now in Canada. It's flawed. It doesn't work and it's problematic.

Given the comments—as my colleague Mr. Zimmer has said—of elected officials in this part of the country, I hope the committee would support this motion. Certainly, it would just spur the government into realizing that they have taken a flawed approach. At the very least, I hope the Liberal caucus raises this in their caucus meetings.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Ms. Idlout, I have you next on my list.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I have a quick technical question. If we do approve this motion, what's the order? I know that we have other motions for studies. Can you remind us again of how that would work?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Yes. At this point, now that we've concluded Bill C-53, the next business we have is the review of version one of the education study. When we finish version one, then we have the land restitution study draft that we need to go through.

We don't have any passed motions yet for whatever the next study would be, so if this motion passes, I would look to the committee on timing as to whether we want to interrupt the review of either of those two reports. Then, as we get into the land restitution study, that's where I was going to bring up committee business to have us look at motions. The Conservatives are next, for their study, and then we have the Bloc, the NDP and the Liberals. We'll move through that rotation of getting topics sorted out, but I wasn't going to have that discussion until we got into the land restitution report, because we have lots of work to keep us going. There are also a couple of pieces of legislation in the House that could be coming to us.

Should this motion pass, I would look to the committee on timing and when the committee would want to have that motion implemented.

Hopefully, that answers your question, Ms. Idlout. Okay. Thank you.

Next I have Mr. Battiste.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Mr. Chair, we'll be voting against this.

I just want to say, since this is an opportunity to speak about what's going on in my riding, that we have a state of emergency called by the Province of Nova Scotia, by the mayor of the Cape Breton Regional Municipality and by first nation leaders in my riding because of unprecedented snow, snow that has never been seen before in my riding in a hundred years: more than 140 centimetres of snow. I'm getting calls from people saying that they can't get out on their roads and they can't get to dialysis appointments because of the snow. We're hearing that plows are getting stuck. This is all because of the climate crisis we're dealing with.

In the past two years, we've had a state of emergency twice in my riding. We've had two storms of the century in my riding, and for us to say that as a committee we're going to be looking at making the price on pollution free again, to me, is just something that we can't do at this stage. Coastal communities and northern communities are dealing with a cost of climate change that's in the millions—hundreds of millions just for Fiona—and we don't know what this is going to cost us.

We're going to be voting against this, but also, I think it's important to recognize that the provincial and territorial leaders also have a part to play in this. I was watching an Instagram post from the newly elected Premier of Manitoba, who said it's because of the provincial government that they have reduced taxes and have the cheapest gas in Canada.

The provincial premiers have it within their power to ensure this is something that they can do. It's not all on the federal government, but we hope to continue to fight the climate crisis and do everything in our power, because it's impacting indigenous communities more than it's impacting other places in Canada. We learned that at the United Nations last year at the permanent forum, which I'm hoping the committee members might want to go back to again in our travel time in April—I throw that out there and we'll get into that next.

For these important reasons.... We're having this debate, but I'd like to get to a vote on this, because I think we have important issues that we need to move forward on, including legislation.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Mr. McLeod, I have you next.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I think that if we're going to bring a motion forward for a vote in a committee, it's important that the information is correct. I know Mr. Zimmer has tried many times to bring this forward. In this case, he has referenced the premier making a request for an exemption. There has been no such request, so I'm not sure what we're going to study if the premier has not made a request and if the deputy premier has not made a request. In fact, the cost of living offset is coming up for debate in the Legislative Assembly, I believe. We'd certainly be creating some influence on that discussion as federal MPs. I believe there's going to be a good debate on it. In fact, the cost of living rebate may be considered for an increase.

I'm not sure why Mr. Zimmer from B.C. wants to bring forward a motion that involves NWT. I know that his position and the government's position have been to interfere with other regions as MPs. We've seen the superboards being shoved down our throats here in Northwest Territories. We've seen MPs opposing truth and reconciliation recommendations, the murdered and missing...all these things were being blocked by MPs in other jurisdictions.

I'd like to call the question on this. Let's get it to a vote, but I would rule it out of order if I were the chair, because the information is not accurate. There is no request from the premier.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're going to go through our speaking list, and then we'll have the vote.

Mr. Zimmer, you're next. Then we have Mr. Lemire, Ms. Rempel Garner and Ms. Idlout.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I have great respect for the member from Northwest Territories, but it's a CBC article from December 10, 2023. The title says, “N.W.T. premier says he wants complete carbon tax exemption for territory”, and he's actually quoted in the article:

“I mean, ideally, a complete exemption for the territory is what we would hope for,” said R.J. Simpson, chosen this week as premier of the Northwest Territories, in an interview Sunday on Rosemary Barton Live.

“The costs are already high—higher costs are not the solution up here.”

I don't think it gets much clearer. Maybe the member hasn't read that article or hasn't seen that himself.