Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 26th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

We will resume the order with MP Schmale, followed by MP Lemire.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to both witnesses for your testimony today.

Chief Bell, I'll start with you. Thank you for your service to all the police services you served. Just based on your short testimony here, I can imagine you have a large number of stories left untold.

Having said that, based on your testimony alone, it sounds like you were just racing from call to call. It sounds as though, because of the constraints put on the service and because of the program funding, etc., the time you spent with somebody, whether in crisis or otherwise, was almost like a band-aid situation. You really didn't have the time to complete many investigations. I'm sure you did, but it seems like there were some where you probably wished you'd had more time with an individual to help them through their crisis.

[Chief Karen Bell]

Yes, you're correct in your understanding of that.

I worked for a very large police service, the Toronto Police Service, and then I went to my home community. The calls for service are not as voluminous as those I come from, but nonetheless, there are calls, and the people who live in those communities expect the cops to arrive when they call for service.

If the police are not showing up, the people in those communities are certainly letting their chiefs and councils know that. First of all, it's where are our police? If we're getting support and policing through funding and through the support of the Ontario Provincial Police, then why are our members not here?

You're absolutely right. I did not have time to think long and hard about what I was doing. You're going from crisis to crisis. I learned very early on that this is the way policing is expected in these small communities, and I just lived with it. I had no choice.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON]

I can imagine. Even hearing your testimony, where you were saying that you were on the side of the road waiting for backup to show up because the situation seemed potentially dangerous, it's something that I don't blame you for not jumping into until there's backup. That was handled properly.

This program was created in the 1990s and there have been a couple of reviews of the program along the way, but nothing substantial to the point where there were really major changes to the program. Of course, the prime minister at the time, Trudeau, promised that indigenous policing was going to be an essential service. I think it was 2019 or 2020 when that happened. We haven't seen any progress on that front, to the point where nothing was introduced in the budget just a few weeks ago to show an intention to enhance this program.

[Chief Karen Bell]

Yes, you're correct there.

Again, this program started before I became a police officer in 1990. There were two other officers there when I arrived. I realized why the program started and what it was designed for.

First of all, it was the RCMP that policed first nations across the country. Eventually, the OPP took over the policing of the first nations under that program. They quickly realized that they were having difficulty attending calls and doing calls for service because of the historical wrongdoings or the misconceptions that indigenous people had of police.

They then instituted the Indian policing program and hired indigenous police officers, predominantly from their home communities, to police their people. It got to a space where we weren't sufficient for the number of calls we were getting. If you're sitting in court all day long, you would expect to go home, have a rest for six to eight hours and then go back to work. That did not happen for us.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON]

Thank you, Chief Bell.

How much time do I have, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

You have a minute and a bit.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON]

Okay.

Ms. DeLaronde, you mentioned in your words here about making sure.... By the way, on this side of the House, we support the red dress alert system. I think all parties do. I'm pretty sure that received unanimous support. Thank you for everything you've done on that and for the work of you and your colleagues.

You talked about ensuring that women and girls are safe. First of all, are you noticing an increase in violent crime across the country in many communities? Also, it seems we're not talking about an 18-year-old who made a mistake and got arrested. We're talking about those who offend and get arrested, get out on bail and reoffend. It's this revolving-door justice system that we've been encountering lately. Is that posing a problem in the conversations you're having on the ground?

[Chief Karen Bell]

Yes. I've given you my first nation policing perspective as a police officer. I'm also now the chief of a nation, so I'm giving you two perspectives.

I can tell you that the women are victims on all fronts. There is a definite increase in violent crime. There's a definite increase in human trafficking. There's a definite increase in drugs in the communities, and in all the communities, not just mine.

That means that even though all of these things have come in, when people, mostly men, offend and get released, they don't go anywhere else other than back to their homes. Now we're back to square one, and there's recidivism. It just keeps repeating.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to thank the two witnesses for being with us. Their extensive experience and dedication to the most vulnerable people, especially women, is truly remarkable.

Chief Bell, I also want to congratulate you on becoming the first female police chief and chief of Garden River first nation.

Given your extensive experience in Anishinabek policing and your current role as chief, can you tell the committee about key changes you've seen over the years around public safety in your community?

In your opinion, what priorities must the future federal first nations policing act address to ensure the safety and well-being of your people?

[Chief Karen Bell]

For the first comment, I feel that for first nations it should be designated as an essential service. Without that designation, we're not going to get additional financial support for all of the other outlying services that other police services have. Other than that we'll stay in the same boat as the last 35 years. There will be one, two or three officers trying to do everything.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

The committee has been hearing more and more reports that organized crime groups are targeting first nations territories because they know that many on-reserve police services have serious staffing, funding and equipment shortages.

In the case of Garden River and the territory served by the Anishinabek Police Services, have you noticed any criminal groups trying to exploit these vulnerabilities?

What are some specific ways these external pressures affect your police service's ability to effectively protect your community and its members?

[Chief Karen Bell]

I can say that we are not untouchable. We are another nation that sits here like a sitting duck, waiting for these persons of criminality to come. They are an enterprise that sees money. The easy way to get into this money is by targeting vulnerable persons in Ontario. The vulnerable persons are these communities that are left without proper policing and other effective services that other police services have, like a drug unit, a dog handler, detectives and analysis on crime. We just don't have those kinds of things.

You're looking at a very vulnerable population of men and women who are sitting there and allowing these things.... They're not allowing it, but it comes in and it is affecting everybody.

As the chief of the nation, I can say that when the Robinson Huron Treaty settlement agreement of $10 billion came into the 21 nations within the treaty area, we definitely identified, as chiefs, that there was a high influx of undesirable people to our communities. As a result, now we're left with how we're going to try to get rid of this kind of behaviour. We're stuck trying to create bylaws that don't have any teeth to them.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Your police service serves 16 communities. My region has a similar undertaking that aims to serve a number of indigenous communities.

What are the benefits of amalgamating like that?

Can you also expand on your previous answer by telling us about coordination challenges related to the territory you have to cover and the distinct characteristics of the communities therein?

Does collaborating result in more services and resources?

What can you tell us about that?

[Chief Karen Bell]

Yes, I did come from the Anishinabek Police Service, where there are 17 detachments. When there was a special event or a crisis happening in one of the communities, as a supervisor, I would reach out to the other supervisors in the community and say that I needed supports. That means those officers would leave their home communities and come to help another community. However, in the meantime, we've left another community vulnerable because the officers have gone. They've now travelled, say, from southern Ontario to northern Ontario to assist another first nation in its policing situation.

This is not helping. We talk about band-aids and this is what we are doing. We're just rotating people and officers around to different first nations to provide additional support, but we've now left those communities. Their chiefs and councils get very frustrated because we've just asked to borrow three of their officers for a week, two weeks, a month, or who knows how long. We don't have those additional supports like other services do.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Your community is in a region where a number of police services work alongside each other.

How does your service coordinate responses with municipal and provincial police chiefs, including investigations, emergency responses and cross-border cases?

[Chief Karen Bell]

I can tell you that when I started my policing career in 1990, there was an invisible line between police services. I was stuck in the bush on a first nation working as a police officer and I had no access to municipal police. I didn't even know who they were. Once in a while, I would hear from an OPP member if he decided to drive through on the highway to get to his other area of responsibility. There was little to no cohesiveness, and it took me almost my entire career to create that bond and relationship with other services.

Now it is definitely much better than when I first started. We can rely on members of either the Sault Ste. Marie city police or the Ontario Provincial Police to provide all those supports. Also, we have a memorandum of understanding with the Ontario Provincial Police that if we cannot provide support such as a drug unit, dog handlers or major crime investigators, they will provide that support for us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you.

Now we'll have the second round of questions for the two presenters.

First off, we have MP Stevenson for the Conservatives.

Oh, you're going to go first, Mr. Zimmer. Okay. You have five minutes, please.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses as well.

My question is for Karen.

First of all, thank you for your service, as my colleague mentioned previously. You continue your service after serving many years in the police force by being a community leader and chief. It just continues, and I appreciate your care for your community.

You said that you served in the Toronto police force for three years, but how many years did you serve in the community?

[Chief Karen Bell]

I actually started as a correctional officer in Ottawa. From there, I went to the Toronto police for three years. From there, I went to my home community, where I spent 35 years policing.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

That's amazing.

I'll reiterate what you said. You said that at times your personal safety was at risk. You had to wait for half an hour, at times, for backup on the side of the road, which impeded your helping people whom you wanted to help. You also said that there was a lack of funding.

In the Parliamentary Budget Officer's report on first nations and Inuit police funding, on page 1, it says, “Most stakeholders believe self-administered First Nations and Inuit police services are underfunded”. Would you agree with that?

[Chief Karen Bell]

Yes.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Here's my second question, and maybe I'll ask you this first because I almost assume that you do.

Do you hunt?

[Chief Karen Bell]

Yes.