Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Meegwetch. Thank you.

We have Billy Morin now, for five minutes.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

We've heard today—and of course we know, as public servants—that the first nations and Inuit policing program is obviously missing the Métis aspect.

My first question is for President Lamouche.

You're unique in that you have the only legislative land base of Métis communities across Canada, and a significant amount of Alberta is covered by your jurisdiction. Can you expand upon comparatives in regard to the land base that you have? Also, how does not being in the first nations and Inuit policing program affect your communities when it comes to protecting them with safety?

[Dave Lamouche]

Just to put it into context, from my comments today, our land base is equivalent to that of Prince Edward Island, and we have roughly about 6% of P.E.I.'s population. P.E.I. has a population of roughly around 183,000 people.

P.E.I. has approximately 225 RCMP officers, plus three municipal forces in Charlottetown, Summerside and Kensington. Kensington has a chief, a deputy chief, four constables and four casual constables for a community of around 1,500 people near Cavendish. Charlottetown and Summerside would likely have larger forces.

We assume total police presence in P.E.I. would be around 250 personnel. With that basic math, our settlement should have at least 15 or 16 dedicated police members, with two per settlement as a minimum. Some of our settlements are similar in population to Kensington.

In reality, we can see a future in which every settlement has a dedicated force of four to five officers who work alongside social services. Team members would ensure a full spectrum of support available to the people we serve.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Thank you, President Lamouche.

To our two ministers, I have a similar question.

Right now you are working towards self-government agreements and self-determination. As mentioned, you're left out of the first nations and Inuit policing program. What are the consequences of that exclusion, and what role do you see INAN, ISC or the powers that be in CIRNAC playing in how that evolves?

[Brennan Merasty]

The consequences are higher rates in crime, violence, suicides and people being lost and disconnected from the realities of everyday life.

There are funding programs for first nations, as stated, but there's nothing for Métis, so we have to be creative and strategic and find ways to partner and make sure that our Métis-led initiatives are a part of the conversation. We continue to do that with our partners in the RCMP, from indigenous police servicing right down to the community and the marshals now in Saskatchewan.

As stated earlier, we do have some submissions in with Canada for funding of our Métis-led initiatives to deal with the drugs, gangs and violence, and we're hoping for good results there.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

To go back to President Lamouche, your communities are unique with the land base. You're next to first nations, you're next to rural municipalities and you're next to small municipalities in Alberta.

Over the last number of weeks in this committee, we've heard different models. I've heard from the ministers and you, and from Ms. Metallic as well, that there's no one size that fits all and that every community is a little unique, but can you just elaborate and expand upon your situation with the settlements? Are you open to collaboration with the province? Are you open to collaboration with first nations? Are you open to collaboration with the municipalities?

One good line I heard here is, of course, that jurisdiction comes into an issue, and I think the government plays that card a little bit too much to stop things, but another indigenous leader told me that money shouldn't even matter; we have to protect lives and protect people.

Talk to me about the collaboration you see, going forward.

[Dave Lamouche]

We've been doing a lot of work within our eight Métis settlements. Just recently, we had a conference here with the RCMP, with the Alberta sheriffs, with Lakeshore policing— which is indigenous-led—and the Métis Settlements, looking for models and ways to address providing the service. We're looking at a model that we would be centrally operating within our government at MSGC.

The settlements are spread right across Alberta. We were thinking of having collaboration with both the RCMP and Alberta in the settlements and working collaboratively in each settlement to have a presence there and have either satellite services or detachments that operate within those eight settlements. Each settlement would have its own little jurisdiction, although under one jurisdiction, but there would be different areas.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thanks, Dave. I appreciate that.

Now we go to Ginette for the final question and answer period.

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Thank you so much to all of our witnesses for being here today and for sharing your important testimony. We are happy to have you with us.

My first question is to Minister Merasty and Minister Fullerton.

As you know, the federal government has already undertaken steps to address the crisis of gang-related crimes and illicit drugs within indigenous communities, including initiatives such as the Canada border strategy and Bill C-12.

Drawing on your own personal experiences and work with the Métis Nation-Saskatchewan, how do you see the collaboration among the federal government, indigenous police services and community organizations being strengthened so that they can be more effective on the ground?

[Beverly Fullerton]

That's a great question.

Métis Nation-Saskatchewan represents over 40,000 registered Métis citizens, and those numbers will be even higher once we get them registered.

When the Métis are not recognized in the committees or in the funding or by having those voices at the table, it puts us where our hands are almost tied to move further to bring in the programs and services that we know our citizens would need.

Right now, when we see Métis not being recognized, such as at this committee, we go back to the communities. We have other non-profit organizations or frontline folks addressing these issues, and they're all competing for the same pot of funding instead of being able to come together collaboratively and enhance those small dollars and make them larger.

What we do at Métis Nation-Saskatchewan is work very hard every single day, building the relationships with the other first nations in our other communities, our urban communities. If you look at our northern communities, what you'll find is that a lot of those communities have only one road in and one road out, and they're mixed. We have non-indigenous and we have first nations, but we have a lot of Métis, so when we're addressing the gang strategies, we need to be very community-focused. What's happening in La Loche gang activity is going to be different from what's happening in Regina gang activity or what's happening in British Columbia, so we can't have that one-size-fits-all response in the way we address these issues.

We have a lot of intergenerational trauma, and we know that if we have that access and we are working alongside our RCMP and we're bringing in that culturally specific Métis training in partnerships, that is when we're going to start seeing some change in our communities when the healing comes there.

[Brennan Merasty]

As my colleague stated, we represent over 40,000 Métis in Saskatchewan. With the self-government agreements to date and the funding mechanisms put in place for Métis Nation-Saskatchewan, there is over $80 million for post-secondary education. Tens of thousands of Métis citizens are now having different outcomes. We are contributing to society. We are part of it. We have found a purpose. We are doing real things.

The $22 million in early learning and child care programs—and it's probably greater now—has impacted over 32,000 Métis families for better outcomes through better supports. The money and the funding streams currently in place change our outcomes. That's what we need here, but for all Métis and first nations.

We are having those conversations with leadership. It's not just Métis; it's all Métis and first nations.

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Metallic, we've already discussed the models and how there are a lot of different options that should be on the table, and the flexibility, whether that be peacekeeping forces or what have you. There are many things to consider.

Could you go into a little further detail with respect to the kind of accountability mechanism that should be in place? We have discussed funding. Are there any reports—the CCA report, for example, or others—that give some sense of what the required level of funding really is? What are we talking about in terms of an accountability structure, and what would be better scenarios?

[Naiomi Metallic]

In terms of what the funding models would look like, first of all, the starting place would be taking a look at the levels that are received by non-first nations police forces. Substantive equality is not just getting us up to that level; it can be above that if there is need, based on geography, historical impact and other factors as well.

I am pulling that from the First Nations Child and Family Caring Society case on child welfare, but the parallels are so significant in terms of policing. You would look to those factors, I think, and there really needs to be some oversight and models to monitor this and how it's going.

I wrote a report for Cindy Blackstock in child welfare, but it went broader in saying that currently there are no ombuds or accountability mechanisms to look at the services that are provided, either by ISC or as a public service, as they relate to policing services for indigenous folks. I think that would be really important as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you very much.

That brings us to the end of our first panel.

Thank you to all our presenters for the excellent testimony and for being with us today.

We'll suspend while we get the next group up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

On our next panel, we have Mylène Jaccoud, professor, school of criminology, Université de Montréal, who is appearing as an individual.

We have, from the Otipemisiwak Métis Government, Andrea Sandmaier and Garrett Tomlinson.

Welcome to our guests. Each group has five minutes to present.

Please go ahead. Thank you.

[Andrea Sandmaier, President, Otipemisiwak Métis Government]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for the invitation to appear before you today.

My name is Andrea Sandmaier, and I am the president of the Otipemisiwak Métis Government, the democratically elected government representing over 73,000 Métis citizens across Alberta. The word “Otipemisiwak” means “the people who govern themselves”.

The Otipemisiwak Métis Government is the oldest continuous Métis government in Canada. We have our own constitution, which came into force in 2022, creating a fair, transparent and accountable system of governance rooted in Métis laws, values and traditions.

In 2019, Canada and the Métis nation within Alberta, now the Otipemisiwak Métis Government, signed the Métis Government Recognition and Self-Government Agreement. In 2023, we signed our self-government implementation agreement, building on the 2019 agreement and the Framework Agreement for Advancing Reconciliation. Together, these agreements form the foundation for our nation-to-nation relationship with the Crown and affirm our right to govern our own internal affairs.

As I said recently to ministers at the federal-provincial-territorial-indigenous meeting on justice and public safety, community safety must be understood through an indigenous lens. For Métis people, safety begins with health, housing, family and connection to culture and language. These are the social determinants of health that shape whether a community is well, whether our children thrive and whether people feel hope for their future.

We know that Métis people are overrepresented in parts of the justice system, yet there is almost no distinctions-based data to tell us why. We are trying to solve a problem without the proper information to do so. Until we have Métis-specific data, programs and policies that reflect our realities, the system will continue to miss us. That is why the Otipemisiwak Métis Government is calling for investments that focus on prevention and healthy communities, not only intervention.

We are advancing a Métis health strategy, building culturally grounded child and family services under Bill C-92, and leading projects such as the Healing Waters Recovery Community, a land-based treatment centre that blends cultural and clinical care. These are safety programs too, because at its core, safety is wellness.

Community safety is also about trust, trust that justice will be fair and that every life is valued the same. That trust was once again broken in March 2020, when Jacob Sansom and Maurice Cardinal, two Métis hunters and family men, were murdered on a rural Alberta road. Their only crime was being indigenous men driving home with fresh meat to feed their families.

The leniency shown in the sentencing and parole of one of their killers, released on day parole after serving only part of his sentence, has shaken confidence in a justice system that too often asks indigenous victims to prove they deserve justice in the first place. This is why we cannot separate community safety from bail reform or justice reform. A system that releases violent offenders without proper accountability, while continuing to criminalize indigenous poverty and addiction, is not keeping anyone safe.

Our government also believes in strong, trust-based relationships with police, but those relationships must be built on respect and understanding. Many of our citizens live in rural or northern areas where policing can feel distant and where Métis voices are often missing from local safety planning. To support our citizens, we need to do this through partnership.

First, we need dedicated liaison officers within our government and sustainable funding that empowers us to build formal partnerships with police forces across jurisdictions.

Second, we need distinctions-based funding and databases for Métis-led safety initiatives so that prevention programs, community justice models and emergency-response systems are designed by our own people and rooted in our values.

Finally, we need the Crown to empower us and then get out of the way.

Meaningful partnership does not mean managing Métis priorities from Ottawa. It means recognizing that the Otipemisiwak Métis Government is ready and able to deliver solutions. We have proven that when Métis people lead, we deliver.

Mr. Chair, Métis people have always been builders and problem-solvers. Our nation was born from partnership and perseverance. We are ready to bring that same work ethic to create safer, healthier communities. For that to happen, Canada cannot see us as clients of policy, but as partners in governance.

Marsi.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you, Andrea.

Mylène, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Mylène Jaccoud, Professor, School of Criminology, Université de Montréal, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I would like to thank the committee for the opportunity to participate in its work.

Today I will mostly just introduce myself and briefly explain the types of work I've done. Afterwards, I will obviously be available to answer questions from committee members.

I have been a professor at the School of Criminology at the Université de Montréal for some time, since 1994. I have specialized in indigenous realities related to the criminal justice system since I began my studies in 1986. Throughout my career, I have had many opportunities to observe the challenges faced by indigenous policing, both in the Inuit communities of Nunavik and in some first nations communities in Quebec. I've also been involved in some research projects, working groups and commissions of inquiry.

In particular, I was a member of the Council of Canadian Academies' Expert Panel on Policing in Indigenous Communities. In fact, I think you have had access to the report we tabled. I was also responsible for the indigenous policing component of the Public Inquiry Commission on relations between Indigenous Peoples and certain public services in Quebec. I may have the opportunity to explain to you how the commission worked, and I hope in particular to have the opportunity to speak to you about the gap between my recommendations and those that were accepted by the commissioner.

I'll add that I don't define myself as an expert on indigenous issues. I define myself as a generalist. While I have conducted specific work on issues directly related to the police, I have also conducted work on other issues, including self-determination in justice, justice committees in Quebec, community justice and other possibilities, violence against women and violence in communities. I've basically done qualitative research through observations and interviews. This work provides another lens on policing issues. I find it interesting to have a view of the challenges related to security and peacekeeping through other issues that have been discussed.

If I can be useful to your work, I would be happy to do so. I'll just tell you where I'm coming from and answer questions as best I can.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you, Mylène.

Billy will kick things off for six minutes, please.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our guests today.

I'll start with President Sandmaier.

You highlighted a very prominent, challenging and tough incident in Alberta. Being from Edmonton, of course, I remember this incident with Jacob and Maurice. It's tough even talking about it now.

It's impossible to turn back time, but if things could be different with Métis liaison officers, community safety officers, do you think situations like that would not happen again if you had a stake and some jurisdictional respect, and a way of solving those rather than just being left out of first nations and Inuit policing program?

[Andrea Sandmaier]

I think a lot of that particular case does speak to community safety and that cultural competency that was discussed on the panel before. However, we need RCMP and other police forces within Alberta to know who we are as Métis people, to understand who we are and to understand our cultural practices.

There are a lot of things that stand out to me about this case, not only the senseless murder of two of our community members but also the lack of supports for the family. Victim services were not there for the family in the way they needed to be. They don't understand our culture, our language, who we are as Métis people. They actually refused to have victim services be with them during the entire devastating two years it took; and it's still ongoing.

Also, parole and the justice system itself.... Sheriffs working within the courthouse where blatantly.... You could see the racism in the remarks and the things that were done to the family as compared to the other family. There were a lot of things that were wrong with it.

For all of the justice system to know who we are as indigenous people, as Métis people, as first nations people, as Inuit people, and to have a full understanding of the distinctions based on who we are is really important.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Absolutely. Reiterating a lot of what we heard from prior testimonies and throughout these last number of weeks, of course, there's no one size that fits all. Even you just now highlighted victim services, the justice system and the courts as being part of this process.

You spoke earlier about data management. I think that's one that often goes unspoken here and in policing. You have the best data. The community itself has the best data. Did you cite a specific investment or partnership that you're working on when it comes to data management in terms of safety and policing?

[Andrea Sandmaier]

I think there's a lack of data when it comes to Métis-specific.... Throughout a lot of different jurisdictions within government, whether it is justice, child and family services or health—all of those things—we're not in those statistics. We're not seen there. You either get “indigenous” or you get “first nations”, and there's no “Métis” drop-down on the menu when you're doing intake, whether it's in child and family services or in the justice system. Canada needs to do a better job, as does Alberta, of making sure that those statistics are true and correct.

We can do that work as well. We do that work with the little bit of funding that we have. Especially under justice, we don't have sustainable funding. We piece together different grants to make sure that we're helping our citizens as best we can.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Maybe I'll go to Mylène.

You've read the reports. You've studied multiple different things. As we've heard, even in partnership with a prior witness who testified today, both public safety and IAC repeatedly promised action but cited jurisdictional complexities as a barrier. In your view, is this complexity real, or has it become an administrative excuse to avoid accountability?

[Mylène Jaccoud]

Can you clarify what you mean?