Evidence of meeting #9 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.
A video is available from Parliament.
Associate Professor and Chancellor's Chair of Aboriginal Law and Policy, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
That's the CTA, which involves more officers from the RCMP, so there's an existing infrastructure. When you are doing self-administered policing, you are creating the infrastructure; there's a board, and there has to be staff. You're essentially creating that infrastructure.
It can cost more, and at times it has been a challenge.
However, I think that there are probably creative ways to look at how it can be done with economies of scale, perhaps looking at several first nations in Manitoba—
Conservative
William Stevenson Conservative Yellowhead, AB
I guess it's not so much the cost per each one. What I'm looking at is the government funding, Ottawa's funding.
Do they actually fund them on a per capita basis, or are they funding them just by the difference in their model and saying that they're going to send so many RCMP, versus giving you x dollars to have your own funding for self-policing?
Associate Professor and Chancellor's Chair of Aboriginal Law and Policy, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
I think I'm getting your question.
There are agreements, and the agreements set out the various aspects—capital costs, staff costs and these sorts of things—that will be covered under self-administered policing.
When the issue came to a Supreme Court of Canada case last year in 2024, involving a self-administered group from Quebec, it was found that consistently they came and said that what you're providing to us is not enough. It was split 60-40 between Canada and Quebec—I think that's right—and they consistently asked for increases, because it wasn't actually at cost.
There's a formula that Canada uses. I don't know what's behind the formula, but I know that first nations under self-administered policing have consistently said that it's not enough. The Supreme Court has said—
Conservative
William Stevenson Conservative Yellowhead, AB
Where I'm going with this is that we've heard multiple different witnesses talk about having to change the model so as not to be institutional with the RCMP and to have more culturally appropriate justice. What I was getting at was whether those who are on self-policing have the flexibility to use their funding to look at preventive measures when they want to go forward. Would they be able to change how they use their funding so that they could have flexibility in their model, or is it only barely just keeping up with staff members and hard costs and that sort of thing?
Associate Professor and Chancellor's Chair of Aboriginal Law and Policy, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
As far as I understand it, there is no flexibility in the self-administered model. They have to follow provincial standards all across the board. There's underfunding, and they're typically using it just to keep the lights on.
The Supreme Court of Canada case is a great overview of the problems that were faced by that particular community.
Conservative
William Stevenson Conservative Yellowhead, AB
Mr. Lamouche, you talked about how presence is prevention and presence builds trust. Going forward, what do you suggest in changing some of the model so that it's not always reactive but actually preventive and has some sort of structure so that they're not having people go through the system afterwards, after the crimes?
President, Metis Settlements General Council
First of all, I think it's providing the service of presence. Having more presence in our communities would maybe not stifle it completely, but I think it would probably narrow the amount of criminal activity that happens in the community.
There's also opportunity for the police to work with, say, social services or other family and resource networks to deal with crime, with youth, through more prevention programs and more involvement in social development types of activities.
Also, if we instill restorative justice, you could prevent a lot of incarceration by having local jurisdictions deal with matters at the very beginning stages of—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan
Thank you, Dave. We're going to move to the next questioner.
Brendan, you have five minutes, please.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks, everyone, for the excellent testimony and for being here.
I want to start with something that my friend Mr. Schmale mentioned, the passing of Bill C-75 in 2019, and associating that with gang infiltration into communities while reminding everyone that association is not causation.
That bill did introduce an aspect that was intended to require judges to give particular attention to the circumstances of individual and vulnerable accused.
Minister Merasty, I heard you talking a lot about not imposing institutional solutions on Métis or other indigenous communities. When you're addressing violence, addictions and suicide in communities, as you talked about—in fact, your nation declared an emergency in August—how do you begin to address the complexity of what's happening in the community?
That's recognizing, of course, that gang infiltration is widespread. It's malignant. It should concern us all.
On the other hand, we can't just put everyone in jail.
Minister of Self Determination and Self Government and Justice, Métis Nation-Saskatchewan
Indigenous means all Métis and first nations. We need to be a part of the conversation and the led initiatives that are doing things differently and outside of the box.
Times have changed, but the cycles continue. The cycles continue, for example, in northern Saskatchewan, where the rates of crimes and suicides are seven times greater than those in southern Saskatchewan. Although the south is still dealing with the same issues, they are greater in the isolated communities of northern Saskatchewan. We need to do something different. Incarceration does not work, because you are boxing our people in. Institutional concepts don't work.
Our working group is thinking outside the box. We are looking and exploring with members of the RCMP through their many years of experience and others with lived experience to see how we can reintegrate our people back into the community. You can't just put them in another house, where the cycle continues. We need safe spaces and supportive living so that they can be nurtured to do things differently and get greater outcomes.
I changed my life, after 25 years, by being in a safe space. My wife and kids are back with me. Six people in our community now have an outcome different from what society expects of us.
Thank you.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
That's amazing. Thank you.
Minister Fullerton, do you have anything to add to that? I saw you nodding.
Minister of Health, Mental Health and Addictions, Métis Nation-Saskatchewan
It is all a bigger issue. If we don't have prevention and we're not meeting them before an intervention and then in the follow-up and the aftercare....
I want to make it very clear that currently, there is absolutely no funding for Métis-specific policing. Tiny grants here or there are not sustainable for our people.
This current system continues to be a conduit into the foster care and justice systems. The lack of supports and intervention mechanisms pre- and post-incarceration and the lack of foster care supports for those aging out of the system often lead to involvement in the justice system and recidivism, furthering the need for additional policing and public safety officers.
What we're seeing is that we can fill the prisons very easily, but where are they going when they're released? What are we doing for our folks to help prevent them from getting into drugs and crime and joining the gangs?
We look at the gangs. Yes, they're very violent. Also, those are families. There are intergenerational gang members now. We have great-kokums with their great-grandchildren in a gang.
It's a larger issue. It's where these systems actually need to start intertwining and working together so that we can have these preventive measures and not just be siloing it, because then we're not going to address all of the issues of the bigger picture.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you. I know the analysts are noting your points very closely, so thank you for that.
Professor Metallic, I'm still grappling with your figures on the dramatic decrease in indigenous police officers over the years, from 90% to only 25%. That's quite astounding.
Obviously you point out the lack of resources and the lack of recognition of policing as an essential service, but can you dig into that a little bit? How do we restore that number?
Associate Professor and Chancellor's Chair of Aboriginal Law and Policy, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
It includes remuneration not being at the same level and people then getting scooped up by others, such as the RCMP or municipal services. Being underserviced means that people face more risks on the job or have to do more on the job than comparable officers. Those are some of the things. They're outlined in the CCA report. I recommend taking a look at that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan
Thank you very much.
Go ahead, Sébastien, for two and a half minutes, please.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Metallic, you pointed out that the funding split, where 52% comes from the federal government and 48%, from the provinces, often leads to a race to the bottom. The total amount depends on which government contributes the least.
Why do you think both levels of government continue to provide insufficient funding when there is long-standing evidence of inequity? What mechanisms would help to ensure more stable, predictable and equitable funding over the long term?
Associate Professor and Chancellor's Chair of Aboriginal Law and Policy, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
I think it goes back to my previous answer. Both are trying to fund us as little as possible. The disagreements on constitutional issues over who has responsibility lead both to do less, and I think you're right in suggesting it's a bit of a race to the bottom. Funding has to be based on adequate services and actually funding at cost, as opposed to basing the funding on formulas that are essentially arbitrary.
Also, I think there needs to be oversight. I think the Nishnawbe Aski recently got into the Ontario legislation. There's a mechanism there for funding disputes to be addressed in a proper independent way. I think mechanisms are needed to ensure that those contracts are being negotiated fairly. There's recent guidance from the Supreme Court about how to negotiate them fairly. I think those are all good mechanisms that are helpful.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
In fact, there's an imbalance there as well. Funding for the police is a source of imbalance, but funding for the courts is also a source of imbalance. In many cases, it seems that first nations, to be heard, have to go to court.
What impact does that have on the application of justice?
November 3rd, 2025 / 4:30 p.m.
Associate Professor and Chancellor's Chair of Aboriginal Law and Policy, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
That's a great question.
There's been a human rights decision for one community, but we know it's the same in all communities. Why do we have to keep going to court to prove something? Why isn't Canada proactive in addressing this, instead of first nations having to go to court each time? We know it's the same issue across the board.
I think that's an excellent question, and we do see that. Really, they should be acting proactively.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
It's often said that the government imposes its conditions.
How can we encourage negotiation instead of having conditions imposed by a government, especially when we feel that the federal government has no interest in recognizing indigenous police forces?
Associate Professor and Chancellor's Chair of Aboriginal Law and Policy, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
The Supreme Court has tried to assist us by giving a list of what the government can't do. They said so with Quebec in the recent case: They can't be intransigent, must go with an open mind to the table, engage in genuine negotiations and not attempt to coerce or unilaterally impose an outcome.
I think that is really key guidance. The Supreme Court says that if you don't do that, you're breaching the honour of the Crown and are liable for damages if that's the case.