Evidence of meeting #16 for Industry and Technology in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was economy.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Estill  Chief Executive Officer, Danby
Miller  President and Chief Executive Officer, Universities Canada
Tapp  Chief Executive Officer, Centre for the Study of Living Standards
Soucisse  Chief Executive Officer, Réseau des CCTT
Santor  Advisor to the Governor, Bank of Canada
Dias  Global Macro Strategist, As an Individual
Déziel  Chairman of the Board of Directors, Réseau des CCTT

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Good morning, everybody.

Good morning, everyone. I hope you had a nice weekend.

We are getting towards the end of our study on productivity, but we have a couple more meetings to go. We have two witnesses here in Ottawa with us and one joining us online.

As a brief reminder for witnesses in the room, if you have your headset plugged in but it's not on your ear, please make sure it's placed on the sticker in front of you in order to protect the health and well-being of our interpreters.

As a reminder, all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

We have three witnesses with us, as mentioned. We have, from the Centre for the Study of Living Standards, Stephen Tapp, the chief executive officer; from Danby, appearing by video conference is Jim Estill, the chief executive officer; and from Universities Canada, we have Gabriel Miller, the president and chief executive officer.

Witnesses, you will have up to five minutes each for your introductory testimony. I tend to be a little bit generous, but if you see me frantically waving, that means you're getting close and I'll ask you to wrap up.

With that, Mr. Estill, I believe I'm going to ask you to go first. You have five minutes, beginning now. The floor is yours.

Jim Estill Chief Executive Officer, Danby

Perfect. Thank you.

My name is Jim Estill. I am an entrepreneur, founder, philanthropist and proud Canadian. I'm the owner of Danby Appliances, Arctic Snowplows, and Valcom, and I have investments in many other Canadian companies. Danby has operations in the U.S. as well as Canada, but we are a Canadian company.

I started my first business selling technology products from the trunk of my car. I grew that business to $2 billion in sales. While I was building that business, I invested in, advised and mentored over 150 tech start-ups in Canada. The most famous one I did was BlackBerry, where I was a founding board member. I served on that board for 13 years. I was a co-founding member of Communitech, a thriving tech hub in Waterloo. I was on the OMERS Ventures board when we invested in Shopify.

I've been awarded the Order of Ontario, the Order of Canada and EY Entrepreneur of the Year. I have honorary degrees from the University of Waterloo, the University of Guelph and Humber College. My family and I have been afforded the opportunity to donate over $10 million to many charitable causes in Canada. We opened a furniture bank in Guelph that has helped over 300 families with their furniture and housewares, and diverted tons from the local landfill. We've also sponsored and helped over 1,000 refugees and new Canadians come to Canada.

I had to say all that because my staff said I needed to do it. Now that I've gotten it over with, let me say that I am honoured to have the opportunity to speak today.

The government measures productivity in dollars, which is really the only way to do it. The problem is that it often makes for an apples-to-oranges comparison. For example, if Apple takes 5,000 dollars' worth of parts and 200 hours of labour and turns it into $50,000 of iPhones, they are considered to be significantly more productive than Arctic Snowplows taking $5,000 in parts and 200 hours of labour and selling a $10,000 snowplow. Similarly, if Whirlpool or Samsung take a $200 fridge plus two hours and sell it for $500, they are more productive than Danby taking that same $200 fridge and two hours and selling it for $350. My point is that brand creates productivity. If a company like Danby has a higher cost of capital than Samsung, that higher cost would mean Danby is less productive.

Some productivity is external. For example, if the price of oil increases by $10 per barrel, this increases the productivity per hour, as measured by the government, even though the oil worker is producing the same number of barrels of oil. When people think about productivity, they tend to think about welding robots and AI and conveyors and robotic floor sweepers, etc., but productivity is much more than that.

That said, I do think the accelerated depreciation on those items that are specifically tied to productivity does make sense. It has only a modest interest cost to the government.

I was thinking, why wouldn't companies invest in these if there are savings? One reason might be capital. I always try to look for a win-win. I understand where money comes from. If it comes from the government, that doesn't fall from the sky. That's paid for by all of us. The government's cost of access to capital is much lower than it is for businesses. If a government were to allow businesses to delay paying their HST for six months, they could even charge a 3% interest rate, which means that the government is not owed anything and the businesses will be saving 5% or 8% annually, depending on what their cost of borrowing is.

I'm a business person and a capitalist. I do not believe in government supports for businesses, but if you're going to have supports, at least have them spread fairly. The current grants are directed to start-ups and large companies with good lobby groups. When you give government grants to the auto sector, you are making a company like Danby less productive, because you're taking money from us. It's the same when you build an oil pipeline. That's taking money from the economy, which makes the companies less efficient. Any new government program will add inefficiency to Canada.

I suggest that it might be more efficient to simply expand some of the programs now in place. For example, SR and ED should and could be applied to AI training and AI implementation in companies. Like all SR and ED, if the company uses Canadian inputs, those inputs qualify for SR and ED, so we get double impact. I like doing double impact. If the government is going to spend money, they might as well buy Canadian and pay a small premium. I'm a taxpayer, so I do want it to be a small premium. That small premium would spill over into jobs and prosperity, which in turn means more tax revenue.

That said, we need to be cautious not to massively announce or change things so that the U.S. government won't buy from Canadian companies. Municipalities could likely do more to buy Canadian without getting on the U.S. radar. The problem is that municipalities have no money, so it might not be a bad idea for Canada to offer a small subsidy to help them do that.

Canada does not need more programs; it needs to better understand and execute what works. Productivity is not just about machines; it's about creating conditions where businesses can thrive, innovate and compete globally. If we get this right, we don't just boost productivity; we build a stronger, more resilient Canada.

Thank you. Those are my opening remarks.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you very much, Mr. Estill.

Mr. Miller, we'll go to you next for up to five minutes.

Gabriel Miller President and Chief Executive Officer, Universities Canada

Good afternoon, committee members.

My name is Gabriel Miller, and I'm the president and CEO of Universities Canada.

Thank you for inviting me to testify today on such a crucial topic for the country's economic future: Canada's productivity and competitiveness.

Universities Canada represents 97 institutions of all sizes: research-intensive universities, multipurpose regional institutions and smaller specialized institutions. Together, they form a dynamic research ecosystem essential to the country's prosperity.

Canada's ability to tackle its biggest challenges—affordability, housing, health care, productivity and long-term economic growth—depend on its universities. Universities are pillars of their communities, contributing $48.7 billion in economic activity each year and supporting more than 440,000 jobs. They also, vitally, contribute knowledge and talent that drive Canada's economy.

A university education delivers higher earnings, greater job security and stronger participation in the labour market. It also provides the talent that keeps our hospitals, classrooms, research facilities and industries running every day.

Canada's universities train 1.4 million students each year—the next generation of innovators, entrepreneurs and leaders. Universities have helped build this country, and they are indispensable for building a prosperous future. Prosperity and productivity go hand in hand, as you all know, and both depend on a highly skilled workforce.

Today, nearly half of undergraduate students in Canada participate in work-integrated learning, gaining the practical experience that aligns their skills with employer needs. Across the country, our universities are working hand in hand with industry to solve real problems. They're turning research into results, new technologies, companies and solutions for Canadians.

University research is one of Canada's most powerful engines of growth. Our institutions conduct more than a third of Canada's total R and D, generating discoveries, attracting investment and strengthening competitiveness. These outcomes happen when research meets industry and communities. With emerging technologies, from AI and quantum to clean tech, the demand for research talent will only grow.

However, many institutions simply don't have the resources to take discoveries from the lab to the marketplace, or to keep the intellectual property and its economic benefits here in Canada. The challenge doesn't fall on universities alone. Our small and medium-sized enterprises face similar challenges. They account for 96% of Canada's private sector, yet lack the resources to adopt new technologies or pursue their own IP strategies. The result is predictable. We lose valuable intellectual property and the economic opportunities it should generate.

With stronger partnerships among government, universities and industry, and with targeted support for IP protection and commercialization, Canada can keep more of its innovation here at home.

Let me close with the following three recommendations.

First, engage universities directly in major nation-building projects. Initiatives like BOREALIS and the defence industrial strategy show potential. Deep engagement throughout these projects and all major nation-building efforts will strengthen our talent pipelines and help scale Canadian technologies.

Second, partner with universities to advance AI breakthroughs and adoption. AI can radically enhance productivity across the economy. Universities are already helping businesses integrate AI tools through training, mentorship and applied research. With federal investment, these efforts could scale nationally and help businesses adopt emerging technology more rapidly.

Third, and finally, strengthen university tech transfer and accelerate our infrastructure. Targeted support for tech transfer offices, incubators and accelerators will help turn Canadian research into Canadian companies, jobs and economic growth.

Addressing Canada's commercialization and productivity challenges will require many solutions, but these steps can deliver significant impact quickly.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today.

I look forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you very much, Mr. Miller.

Mr. Tapp, the floor is yours.

Stephen Tapp Chief Executive Officer, Centre for the Study of Living Standards

Thank you, Chair and committee members, for the opportunity to appear today.

My name is Stephen Tapp. I'm the CEO at the Centre for the Study of Living Standards. CSLS is a Canadian non-profit research organization that was founded in 1995.

Canada's productivity performance has been a long-standing concern, but it's now widely acknowledged that we face a productivity emergency. Over the past 50 years, our labour productivity growth has slowed dramatically. In the post-war period, productivity grew at nearly 4% a year. Since 2000, it has grown by less than 1% a year. To put this change in perspective, before the slowdown, productivity doubled in 19 years—now it takes about 90 years. This means that the economic progress that each generation previously enjoyed now takes longer than most lifetimes. If we don't reverse these trends, growth and living standards will remain too sluggish, and it will be harder to fund the essential public services that Canadians rely on.

In CSLS research, which was part of an international collaboration led by the U.K.'s Productivity Institute, Andrew Sharpe and I examined Canada's historical productivity performance. While far from perfect, we find that Canadian governments have generally pursued a lot of different pro-productivity policies over the years, from liberalizing trade to targeting inflation, modernizing taxes and investing in human capital. Despite these actions, productivity growth has stagnated in Canada and across most advanced economies. Why?

There are many factors that help explain the slowdown, including that Canada has a small domestic market that represents a shrinking share of global economic activity. Most of our firms are small and have had limited success in scaling up. Competitive pressures and business dynamism have weakened over the last decades. Regulations have increased, becoming more complex and costly to navigate. Our international trade position was lagging well before recent U.S. protectionism.

Ultimately, however, we think the biggest drivers of Canada's poor productivity are slow technological progress and chronically weak business investment. It's encouraging, then, that budget 2025 seeks to raise investment, as we think this correctly diagnoses a key part of the problem.

That said, we must acknowledge that Canada's economy is at its most challenging juncture in decades. U.S. tariffs and threats have created massive uncertainty, and the Canada-U.S.-Mexico agreement will soon come under existential pressure in the 2026 review. This makes efforts to spur investment even more important, but also more difficult.

Given these external challenges, Canada should focus on what it controls, with a policy agenda that aims to incentivize technological adoption and investment, support international trade participation and diversification, improve internal market efficiency, modernize the tax system, and enhance skills and workforce training. Gabriel mentioned artificial intelligence. We think that AI, a technology that Canada helped to pioneer, also represents a major opportunity.

That's why, in June, the CSLS launched the Canadian AI adoption initiative, in partnership with CIGI and the University of Waterloo, to support and track progress on broad-based AI adoption across the economy.

In all areas, we should reach for every basis point of growth we can get. Gradual, sustained progress can meaningfully improve living standards when compounded over time.

Before closing, I want to highlight that while national GDP and productivity indicators provide essential signals, they don't capture the full picture. Broader measurement that digs into and beyond the national numbers, like the CSLS indexes of economic well-being and human development, reveals large disparities across Canada.

On human development, for example, we estimate that Canada's top-ranking jurisdictions of Ontario, Quebec and Alberta would place 15th to 17th globally. By contrast, in the territories, Nunavut ranks around 70th globally. This effectively represents the difference between living in a place like the U.K. versus Albania, based on these implied rankings. Such disparities underscore the enduring challenges, particularly in Canada's north and indigenous and remote communities, as well as the need for place-based policy approaches.

CSLS research also suggests that traditional economic indicators, as disappointing as they've been, may actually have overstated Canada's progress, because when you look beyond the aggregate results, you see that we face more inequality and more risk than we did decades ago.

In closing, Canada's productivity performance has been disappointing, and the outlook is challenging. It will take time to address these complex and long-standing challenges. By correctly diagnosing the root causes, leveraging new technologies and implementing policy reforms, we can strengthen productivity slowly but surely to make a meaningful difference over the long run.

To guide that progress, traditional indicators should be complemented with beyond-GDP measures to support more inclusive and resilient prosperity for all Canadians.

Thank you for your time. I look forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you very much, Mr. Tapp.

Colleagues, we'll enter our line of questioning.

Mr. Falk, the floor is yours for six minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

I want to thank all of our witnesses for their testimony here this morning. It's very interesting.

Mr. Estill, I would like to begin with you. You made a comment that our productivity isn't necessarily measured by the right metrics. You said it's not always about the dollar amounts; it's actually about what is being produced. Could you expand on what you mean by that a little bit, so we have a full understanding here at committee?

11:15 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Danby

Jim Estill

Sure. I mean, there's no easy way to compare apples and oranges. Productivity has to be measured in dollars, but making a fridge is not comparable to making a car. It is not comparable to making an iPhone, or to Microsoft selling software or Google selling advertising.

We measure productivity and think that we don't have productivity. It's almost like with your own fitness level or running. You try to improve your own time, as opposed to trying to.... Well, I guess in that case, you do try to beat other people, but I don't know of a way to measure better than with dollars.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Sir, another comment you made is that too much government spending negatively impacts our productivity data.

11:20 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Danby

Jim Estill

Yes, that's correct.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

You would agree that part of our poorer productivity data may be attributed to overspending by the government.

11:20 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Danby

Jim Estill

You could say that. All governments overspend. I'm a capitalist.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Thank you very much.

Mr. Miller, I have a few questions for you.

I don't know if you've had a chance to see it, but Mr. Tapp's organization issued a recent report. In its November report on productivity, chart 5 says that Canada's tertiary education attainment rates are the highest among the OECD countries, somewhere just over 63%. We often compare ourselves to the Americans, which are just over 50%. However, those high education rates haven't translated into higher productivity, based on the data.

Mr. Carney, just in the last few days, said that our government is no longer a “feminist foreign policy” government. Do you think our universities have disproportionately put too much emphasis on DEI and woke policies and not enough on hard education?

11:20 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Universities Canada

Gabriel Miller

I can speak most persuasively from my own experience. I spend time with university presidents just about every week. I'm on campus seeing students and faculty throughout the year. I meet hundreds of people on our campuses. What I see with my eyes are people who are remarkably focused on the future. I think students are perhaps more engaged in their studies and preparing to be successful in the economy than they have ever been. Certainly, they seem more focused on the future than my friends and I were when we were in university. My sense from our universities is that they continue to do an excellent job at preparing people to go out into the workforce.

I would also add, and Stephen may correct me, that there's something misleading about the way we talk about Canada's higher education attainment. When it comes to undergraduate performance, we're basically middle of the pack. We're lagging behind other OECD countries when it comes to graduate degrees completed.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

My question was specific. Have we put too much emphasis on DEI and those social issues rather than on actually teaching core competencies like engineering and entrepreneurship?

11:20 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Universities Canada

Gabriel Miller

I think we're doing a great job of teaching core competencies.

I would just add there's been—

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

It doesn't show in the data.

My next question is for Mr. Tapp.

Mr. Tapp, in your report from November, chart 2 shows the relative labour productivity levels per hour in the business sector. I see you have historical information from 1947 to 2023. I notice that during the time of 2008 to 2015, there was actually a trend of increasing productivity, and after 2015, during the Justin Trudeau years, we actually saw sharp declines in productivity.

You mentioned in your comments that we've become over-regulated. Can you tell me what specific regulations you're referring to that have negatively impacted productivity?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Centre for the Study of Living Standards

Stephen Tapp

Sure. Let me address the first part of the question.

First, regarding productivity, it's important to note that Canada's productivity performance since, let's say, the year 2000 or so has been relatively middling versus the OECD economies. We have done worse, I think, from 2015. Part of that reflects the fact that global oil prices came down significantly in 2014-15, and a lot of the investment that we had in the energy sector disappeared, to a large extent. That was responsible for a third of our capital stock and overall capital spending, and there have not been other sectors that have come in to capture that.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Bill C-48 and Bill C-69 have really dampened our oil and gas industry and have negatively impacted our productivity.

11:20 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Centre for the Study of Living Standards

Stephen Tapp

The lack of investment in the energy sector over the last decade and over longer periods of time has made it more difficult for us to compete and contribute and do well in the economy.

I think the second part of your initial question was about the regulations. I can't speak to specific regulations; I'm more of a macroeconomist, and we do aggregate-level data, so we don't look line by line.

I will highlight that there was a StatsCan report with research over 15 years, and it highlighted that there was an increase in federal regulations of over 2% a year in that period. They did some estimates and modelling that suggested GDP was close to 2% lower because of that and, in particular, that the investment was 9% lower. This discourages entry of businesses and it discourages investment particularly.

To some extent, the fact that we have a Major Projects Office is an admission that it's difficult to get large projects done, so we're trying to move around that process and move things forward. That's a good initiative, and we'll hopefully see that bear some fruit.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you, Mr. Falk.

Ms. O'Rourke, the floor is yours for six minutes.

Dominique O'Rourke Liberal Guelph, ON

I have a point of order, Chair Carr.

MP Falk referred to our Prime Minister as Mr. Carney. When the Minister of Industry was here, MP Dancho asked that she be referred to as MP Dancho, and I would ask that at this committee we use the Prime Minister's title, which he earned from Canadians.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Ms. O'Rourke, I appreciate the point. There's no standing order at committee that has been violated, and therefore there is no point of order specific to the breach of regulations that I can rule on, but I appreciate the intervention.

The floor is yours for your line of questioning.

Dominique O'Rourke Liberal Guelph, ON

Thanks very much, Chair Carr.

Mr. Estill, thank you very much for joining us.

Danby is a stalwart in Guelph, and Mr. Estill personally sponsored 50 Syrian families to come to Guelph and provided employment and all kinds of support. Both in business and in philanthropy, he's a leader in my eyes and in the eyes of many people.

Mr. Estill, budget 2025 proposes a number of measures: major projects; homebuilding; investments in AI and in the defence industrial strategy; a number of ways to pivot to more international markets while shoring up the industries that have been affected by U.S. tariffs, including the regional tariff response initiative; and accelerating Canadian R and D through the productivity super-deduction and expanding SR and ED, just to name a few. There is a lot in this budget.

Which of these measures do you believe would be most helpful in boosting productivity, and what other approaches do you believe would be effective?

If you could take a minute or two, that would be helpful, because I also have a question for Mr. Tapp.