Industry and Technology Committee on Sept. 24th, 2025

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette—Manawan, QC]

That's encouraging. Thank you very much.

My next questions concern a report by the forum for research and policy in communications, published in August 2025. The report's authors analyzed your performance from 1969 to 2025.

At page 86, for example, they estimate the number of staffpersons involved per decision. They say that the number of decisions per staffperson fell from approximately 80 to 27 decisions per staffperson over the last two decades, despite an increase in available staff.

How would you respond to this analysis?

[Vicky Eatrides]

We're going to meet with stakeholders and interested parties. We're doing a lot of work on the items mentioned in that report, and progress has already been made, specifically in the area of engagement. The report talks a lot about engagement and about what we are doing with stakeholders and interested parties. We are getting a lot done.

Scott Shortliffe leads several teams, including an indigenous team. We also have a team that works with official language minority communities.

I can assure you that we're getting a lot of work done. Scott Shortliffe can give you more details.

[Scott Hutton]

Of course, this report spans several decades. It covers a number of things. Broadly speaking, the report addresses transparency, the publication of information and assurance that Canadians are kept properly informed and able to effectively monitor what's going on at the CRTC. Together with our chair, we are making a huge effort in this area.

The CRTC is a tribunal. It can be difficult for the public to come and see us in person. Even here, on this committee, some people are learning the full name of the CRTC for the first time. You are parliamentarians, but for ordinary Canadians, it's a different story.

We are making an enormous effort in this area, whether by simplifying our language, overhauling our data entry or changing the ways that Canadians can come see us and take part in our work. All of these are important.

Through engagement, we also need to build ties with communities that have not taken part in the CRTC's work, including indigenous or racialized communities and consumer groups. These are the groups and communities that we are trying to attract.

As for resources, I am not entirely sure of the specific measure. Mr. Ste‑Marie, you asked earlier on if we could get rid of some rules. Over the past two or three decades, we've eliminated a lot of rules that required minor, perhaps irrelevant decisions. We put a stop to that work so that we could focus on new work.

Parliament has the ability to implement new laws, like the one we spoke of earlier or the one we may have the opportunity to discuss later, concerning the introduction of broadcasting standards. A lot of new work remains to be done.

Indeed, it may not be the ideal solution.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette—Manawan, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, Mr. Ste‑Marie.

Madam Dancho, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you again, witnesses, for being here.

I want to talk to you about scams and frauds today. The Canadian anti-fraud centre has reported that Canadians lost $647 million to scams in 2024 and estimates that only 5% to 10% of frauds are reported. The Canadian Bankers Association estimates that the true cost to Canadians could have been as much as $6 billion to $12 billion in 2024—a staggering number. Clearly more needs to be done, and this committee has agreed to investigate this issue in a future study.

At my constituency office recently, we actually had quite a sophisticated scam call where an individual called—it was “RBC Banking” on the caller ID—who was quite sophisticated in their speech. My very clever staffer who picked up on it saved the day for us. I was just quite shocked that it said “RBC” on the caller ID.

My understanding is that in 2021 the CRTC put out a compliance and enforcement directive to telecommunications companies to authenticate and verify caller ID for Internet protocol-based voice calls as a condition of offering their services. To my knowledge, there is no equivalent directive for traditional landlines. Either way, scam calls are getting through to Canadians as we speak and costing them thousands of dollars.

What, in your view, can the CRTC do to enforce these protocols for both Internet-based calls and traditional phone lines?

[Vicky Eatrides]

I fully appreciate that these scam calls are beyond an annoyance for many people, because a lot of money is being lost. It's a challenge with enforcement, because it's like Whac-a-Mole, and obviously it's a global issue.

We do have a part to play. We have a very small team at the CRTC—fewer than 20 people—who work on spam. That's in collaboration with the Competition Bureau and the Office of the Privacy Commissioner. A lot of the activity that is happening right now falls more into cybercrime and is more criminal in nature. We have a civil regime, so the work we do is only on the civil side.

I don't know if you can add anything in terms of the specifics on that, Scott.

[Scott Hutton]

Well, I think you've highlighted the overall approach that we take. With respect to the precise question, that is a practice that people commonly refer to as spoofing. The measures that we have put in place do apply to all landlines on that front.

If I can put it this way, the source of the issue is that there are nefarious players connecting through IP, and it's because of that IP technology that they are able to spoof. We are trying to close that IP door to minimize spoofing on that front.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

That was in 2021, and it's still happening. What more can be done on your end? I understand you're not an enforcement agency in this way, but you are, to a large part.... Perhaps I'm just not understanding the division of powers, but you've put out the directive, and telecommunications companies don't seem to be doing enough.

I'm not trying to blame them. I'd like to learn more about what the challenges are there, and we will, hopefully, in due time, but the directive doesn't seem to be effective. Is there anything else that you can do to enforce it further?

[Scott Hutton]

The innovation in this domain knows no bounds, if I can say that simply. We have continued. That is certainly an element that we did work on with respect to the telephone companies and trying to halt spoofing. There are a number of other measures that are constantly being put in place, whether they are telephone companies using new abilities to block or to identify calls that are not legitimate on that front.

In the network, there are various working groups that are being put together collectively with the industry. Each company is also, and our teams in that domain are working with them and following closely and encouraging various efforts, including using AI to identify instantaneously calls that are not legitimate. That work is continuing on a constant basis, but unfortunately the innovation there knows no bounds.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much.

It's my understanding, though, that of course telecommunications in this country are governed by the act and that you have the powers within that act to impose any sort of conditions on telecoms. Again, there's this directive. It seems fairly clear. I recognize that the technology is evolving. It's a very difficult issue, but from your regulatory side, you've put forward this directive. It's not being fulfilled, perhaps for very good reasons, but is there nothing more that you can do to sort of further enforce this directive? I'm hearing that perhaps not.

[Scott Hutton]

No, I think the message is that we are continuously working with the companies to improve this situation and to make sure that, from a telecommunications standpoint, these forms of calls are minimized.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, Madam Dancho.

Madame O'Rourke, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Dominique O'Rourke, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was a member of the Groupe Média TFO board of directors for a total of four years and served as its vice-chair for one of those years. The availability of French-language broadcasting and services, especially in official language minority communities, is therefore an issue very close to my heart.

Ms. Eatrides, I'd like to get a clearer picture of your role.

How do you intend to ensure that francophones outside Quebec, but also anglophones inside Quebec, have access to secure and affordable network services in both official languages?

Can you answer these questions as they relate both to broadcasting and to telecommunications services?

[Vicky Eatrides]

I'll give a brief answer to start with and then hand the floor over to Mr. Shortliffe.

This topic is a key focus of our current consultations in connection with work we started following amendments to the act. We will be publishing decisions on that shortly.

[Scott Shortliffe]

I'd like to add something because that's a really important question.

First of all, it's important to acknowledge Canada's two broadcasting markets. There's the English-language market, which faces a number of concerns and challenges, and then there's the French-language market, which is different to some degree. The French-language market has two components: the market inside Quebec and the market outside Quebec. We have to keep this reality front of mind at all times. We've asked very specific questions about broadcasting by certain stations to ensure that good francophone content is available everywhere in Canada.

We hold weekly meetings with a working group on official language minority communities, or OLMCs, to discuss and assess challenges and explore ways to ensure not only good quality French, but also good quality English, in programs broadcast in Quebec.

That's really one of our key concerns, and we ask these questions all the time.

[Vicky Eatrides]

I would also mention that this distinction is enshrined in law. We can also discuss telecommunications briefly.

[Scott Hutton]

I can certainly speak about telecommunications. Where it gets really important is when it comes to the 911 and alert system services, for example. As we see it, these are both priority services in emergencies, when the ability to understand messages clearly and communicate effectively is critical.

In both cases, we play a role with other stakeholders. The 911 service is essentially a bridge between the Canadian telecommunications system and responders. Responders, incidentally, come under provincial jurisdiction.

We make sure that telecommunications services travel across the right bridge in the right language. This is a priority for the 911 service.

We ensure the same thing when it comes to the alert system, including amber alerts or Environment Canada alerts. Once again, we hold open consultations to better regulate the availability of this service in both official languages.

[Dominique O'Rourke, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

I just wanted to ask a separate question in English. We saw catastrophic wildfires in this country this year. I'm wondering if you can help me understand what the impact is of these wildfires on critical infrastructure. How do we create redundancies to ensure that these systems are robust? Also, if you have a moment—and I know I'm probably running out of time—how do we ensure the security of those networks as well?

[Scott Hutton]

With climate change, whether it's wildfires, storms or towers going down, we're looking at what we have done. For the first part, as I mentioned earlier, let's look at advising both Canadians and emergency personnel.

The other work we're doing is with the technical people, to try to see what the good practices are, to look internationally to see how it's done elsewhere, and to see what some companies that are doing better on that front are doing here so that we can see if there is a way for us to help in that environment.

It's a shared responsibility between us, because we regulate and have certain powers, ISED has certain responsibilities, and so does Public Safety. Therefore, it's a shared environment on that front. We are certainly looking at that, and we don't have answers as to how to do better yet, but that's what we're trying to find.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, Ms. O'Rourke and Mr. Hutton.

Mr. Ste‑Marie, you have two and a half minutes.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette—Manawan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also find the issue of French content very important, particularly on digital platforms. It's important to make sure it's available.

I'm going to continue the discussion on the report I was quoting earlier. It says on page 37 that you no longer publish data on the affordability of telecommunications services by income quintile.

How do you ensure that you meet Parliament's objectives of ensuring affordable communication services for everyone?

[Scott Hutton]

We pass data collection on to various bodies. That study was conducted and put forward by Statistics Canada. Given that that organization has decided to end the study, we no longer have the ability to publish it.

We've had more discussions with Statistics Canada over the past year. They're in the process of resuming the study so that we can release it to Canadians.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette—Manawan, QC]

That's very interesting. Thank you very much.

On page 91, I believe, it says that there isn't a public register of Privy Council orders to the CRTC.

Is that normal? Should that be changed? Should there be a public register of orders in council?

[Scott Hutton]

I may have to follow up on that. I think those are orders in council that are published to us.

If I understand correctly, that product isn't ours. It's produced by the government, either by the Minister of Industry or the Minister of Canadian Heritage.