Evidence of meeting #18 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prices.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Cleland  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gas Association, Energy Dialogue Group
Hans Konow  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Electricity Association, Energy Dialogue Group
Dane Baily  Vice-President, Canadian Petrolum Products Institute, Energy Dialogue Group

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I call this meeting to order.

This is a continuation of our study on the manufacturing sector. We have before us members representing the Energy Dialogue Group to talk about the relationship between energy and the manufacturing sector.

It is one of the items identified in our interim report, which was presented in June, as one of the main challenges to the manufacturing sector in terms of dealing with energy costs as an input into their process. We're here today to have witnesses present on that issue and on how energy has a manufacturing component as well.

We have with us three members representing three associations that are all members of the Energy Dialogue Group: Michael Cleland, president and CEO of the Canadian Gas Association; Hans Konow, president and CEO of the Canadian Electricity Association; and Dane Baily, vice-president of the Canadian Petroleum Products Institute.

Welcome, gentlemen.

I believe, Mr. Cleland, you'll be presenting the opening statement for everyone here. I understand you have about a ten- or fifteen-minute statement. We typically have ten-minute opening statements, but because you're presenting for all three here today, we will allow twelve to fifteen minutes.

Welcome to the committee. We look forward to your presentation.

3:30 p.m.

Michael Cleland President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gas Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I will endeavour to respect your timelines. Obviously what's of interest to you is the opportunity to ask questions, so I'll move through it. There's a PowerPoint presentation, and I believe you all have copies of it.

Just by way of introduction, we've all read your interim report with considerable interest. This is an important study, and there are a lot of challenges facing the Canadian manufacturing sector. We welcome the opportunity to talk with you about how energy fits into that picture and how energy and manufacturing are closely intertwined. They are two important components of the Canadian economy that depend on each other in important ways.

We are the deliverers of energy to the manufacturing sector, but we are also important consumers of the products and services of the Canadian industrial economy. So it's a mutually beneficial relationship that has existed for a long time.

As I said, energy and industry are very strongly linked in an overall system. Energy is a supplier of abundant, reliable, low-cost fuel to the manufacturing sector, but at the same time it's a consumer of steel, cement, equipment, and a whole variety of high-technology services from the Canadian economy, as well as inputs from around the world. Energy itself is a system or series of subsystems, and we find that it's useful when you talk about energy, where it's going, and the drivers of the various parts of the system to see it in that full perspective.

Industrial energy use is the biggest single component of energy demand in Canada. It's not the fastest growing, and I think there's an important and positive story here. The industrial sector has made big strides in reducing its energy intensity, in some measure by having increased its energy efficiency. That's made a big difference in sustaining the competitiveness of Canadian industry, even in the face of rising energy costs. It will have to make a bigger difference going forward, for both environmental and economic reasons. In any event, what we've seen is good progress. I'm sure you've heard this from our industrial colleagues over the past years. It will clearly have to be one of the focuses looking forward.

If you look at industrial demand overall, about 30% of it is the energy industry itself--mostly the upstream oil and gas industry. So the cost pressures we're facing in the industrial sector are being faced right across the board--the big one is pulp and paper. A lot of the growth in demand has been driven by the oil and gas sector itself, particularly in the last ten years. That's been a big success story for the Canadian economy, but it also contributes to the demand for energy in Canada.

Where do we get it? Canada is blessed with diverse sources of energy. The industrial sector uses gas, electricity, and refinery products, and a fairly substantial part of its energy comes from owned sources, particularly in the forest sector where they're increasingly using biomass. So options in fuel choice is an important consideration for policy, as well as options in ways to improve energy efficiency.

The next slide is really a kind of macro picture of industrial energy. An important point here is that you can see important gains in efficiency and changes in industrial structure. Over time the Canadian economy, as with any developed economy, is becoming less energy-intensive because of the basic structure. We're moving to products such as high-tech manufacturing, which are inherently less energy-intensive. But Canada has a highly energy-intensive industrial structure, and that will continue for a long time into the future. It's something that has benefited Canadians for a long time, and we need to be mindful of how to ensure that Canadians benefit from that in the future.

On the next slide, the other side of the equation, if you will, is that as we've been increasing our capacity to produce energy in Canada, we've also benefited from a growing export success story on oil, on gas, indeed on electricity, on uranium, and on a number of energy fronts. It is a big success story for Canada and one the energy industry wants to continue, while at the same time sustaining energy supplies for the Canadian economy and for individual Canadians.

Going to the next slide, the chairman mentioned that energy is an industry in its own right, a major contributor to the economy right across the board, most notably, though, with respect to exports and investment, where energy is a very big part of the Canadian economy, and of course to TSX market capitalization—a relatively new phenomenon in the last few years, but an extremely important one.

I'd note as well the last bullet on that page. Energy is also a big contributor to governments, and that is to all governments right across the country; to provinces such as Alberta through royalties, but to the federal government and other governments through corporate income tax, and indirectly through the taxes paid by employees.

The next page gives you a bit of a regional picture. Again, you could spend a lot of time on this one, but note that the regional distribution of energy as a part of the economy is pretty widespread—clearly concentrated in Alberta, but also right across the board in Canadian provinces. It's a big part of GDP and a surprisingly big part of exports from the provinces, again right across the country.

Let me just take a few minutes to go through the different sectors. Three of us are represented here, the main input sectors to industry: electricity, natural gas, and petroleum products. We have different markets, different forms, and different geography, with oil being the most deregulated, the most competitive, and the most world-scale in terms of the market. Natural gas is a continental market, largely deregulated. Electricity is the least deregulated and the most regional in its basic structure.

On the next page, briefly dealing with oil—Mr. Baily can pick up on a lot of this and get into the details—there are a couple of key things worth noting. One is that product markets are very closely linked to the underlying crude price. The underlying crude price itself is derived from a world market, and product prices will tend to move with that price. There are some regional differences and regional lags, depending on the logistics of specific regional markets and things like product standards. That may be even more true going forward. In any event, there's a very strong relationship between the two.

The basic point on the next slide is to show the relationship between the underlying world crude price and the price of refined products. If you look at five different jurisdictions here and strip out the effect of taxes—this is looking at diesel fuel—you basically have an underlying price that is very similar, and indeed those product prices interact between continents, as does the crude price.

Summing it up, on the crude front what we have is a growing demand in developing countries, putting a lot of upward pressure on prices that's likely to continue. We're all familiar with the geopolitical uncertainty that underlies oil prices. It comes and goes. Right now we've seen an easing of it and a consequent reduction in prices.

Refining capacity will be a growing challenge in North America, and indeed in the developed world in general going forward, and it's something there will be growing pressure on.

Related to it is the need to integrate biofuels into the picture. Obviously there's a lot of policy drive to find more room for biofuels. They have to be integrated into the refined petroleum products stream in a way that makes markets work better.

The next page is natural gas. This is a highly developed and mature North American market that works generally well, but it has been under a lot of pressure in the last five years because of a very tight supply-demand balance.

What you see there on that graph is several spikes over the last few years as that tight supply-demand balance has been affected by weather, for the most part, but underlying that is a longer-term trend going up. The reason for this is simply that finding and development costs for natural gas have been steadily growing, and that's likely to be the future we're going to face.

LNG comes into the market in North America, is coming in now, and will make the North American and world markets come together; nonetheless, you're looking at a worldwide phenomenon.

The next page just looks at the future of natural gas in North America. The big picture is there is lots of gas but changing sources, more likely for the north, from the deep Gulf of Mexico, from the Rockies in the U.S., and to a very considerable degree from liquefied natural gas coming in from offshore sources. What that means is there's lots of gas. It means we're going into higher-cost sources of gas, and we're also looking at increased pressure on the transportation system to accommodate the different geography. So investment in transportation will be an important thing going forward.

Page 15, again, sums that up: more expensive, more remote, more unconventional need for investment to sustain those supplies.

Very briefly on electricity, starting on page 16, there are several things we could say on this page, but there are a couple of things to note. Canada is still very strong on hydro. It's one of our big advantages, and an advantage we can sustain going forward if we can get the hydro projects built. But there still has been an increasing reliance on fossil and a stronger and stronger integration going forward between fossil markets, coal, natural gas, and electricity. It goes back to my point about the energy system. They are tied together in a whole variety of ways.

Page 17 gives you a bit of a comparison of prices in North American jurisdictions on electricity. Canada has had an historical advantage in electricity. That has eroded somewhat over the past few years, although Canada is still not uncompetitive in a North American context. Some regions are under more pressure than others, but, generally speaking, our position is still not bad.

I might note as well something you'll probably want to update in your further report, which is that the price conditions we're looking at today are rather different from what they were at the end of last year, which is where your interim report left off. If you look at natural gas, by the end of last year you probably had prices in the order of $13 to $14. Today they're around $4. The point there is that prices move. They can move very rapidly and they can move a lot, but they move in both directions.

So on electricity, I think the key thing there is it has been regulated, and it's tended to be frozen for a lot of reasons that we all understand. Consumers have gotten used to that; it feels good. It feels good until it starts to move, and there are a lot of reasons why it will probably have to move going forward--because of underlying fuel costs, because of the need for new infrastructure, because of the need to upgrade existing infrastructure, and right across the board because of the need to manage growing environmental pressures.

Mr. Chairman, I'm going to sum up on the last page several reasons why we think energy matters to Canada, undoubtedly reasons that would be familiar to all of you. It is an industry in its own right. It's a hugely important part of the input mix to Canadian industry.

On the other hand, we have a diverse energy mix and it's growing more so. We are getting better in terms of energy efficiency. We need to do more. That has to be an important part of the puzzle. We are moving to a higher-cost world. We're certainly not going to move back to the low-cost world we knew up until the turn of the century. We do need to develop more supply in a timely manner.

Mr. Chairman, I'll turn it back over to you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Cleland.

We will now go to questions from members. I'll just point out to members that Mr. Bailey has informed me he has to leave at five o'clock sharp, so he will be here for about an hour and ten minutes.

We'll start with Mr. McTeague, who promises me he will not ask about gasoline prices.

Mr. McTeague, you have six minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Chairman, thank you very much for that. I simply wanted to point out collusion between the energy sectors here--not that it could ever be proven under Canada's current Competition Act, which is really written by the people it's meant to police, but, Mr. Chairman, thank you for that.

I want to thank and welcome all of our guests. Dane, you and I go back quite some way.

I don't have many questions for you. I only wanted to ask some simple questions more along the lines of what we've seen lately.

Mr. Cleland, you pointed out the sudden and dramatic drop in the price of natural gas, which comes as a welcome relief I think to consumers and to businesses alike across this country, though perhaps it's not good news for the gas sector.

I am concerned about how we get from the $4 to $5 to $6 when we know that inventories have been sort of static over the past few years in terms of demand--maybe up a little bit. The overall international capacity for a lot of these products, especially natural gas, has more or less remained static in the five-year bandwidth.

I'm wondering if you could tell this committee if the drop in those prices has anything to do--more than simply substitution and arbitrage between the various types of energy that are out there--with the wild speculation that we saw. Last week The Globe and Mail and many other papers wrote about the collapse of Amaranth, again another hedge fund, an organization that had spent a considerable amount of time leveraging money to drive up the price and speculating, thereby damaging the economy and obviously taking away some confidence from consumers.

In your view, what is really driving the question of price for natural gas? If it could drop fourfold in such a short period of time, one would have to conclude that it probably went up fourfold for fairly spurious reasons.

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gas Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Michael Cleland

I suppose you could invite a lot of technical analysts in to talk about to what extent the hedge funds or speculators are actually driving our price behaviour. One thing we do know for sure is that markets in the short term are not particularly rational. They get onto a particular bugbear and will go tearing off. We saw that last fall.

The underlying supply and demand conditions in gas markets, though, were tight, and whenever you have underlying tight conditions, a small change or a small fear of some future event will tend to drive it to degrees that a normal person would think were not particularly rational. On the other hand, then you see it coming back down again when conditions change.

What we think we know about the underlying fundamentals in the North American gas market--if you base it, for example, on finding and development costs--is that they've probably doubled or more than doubled in the past five years.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

For natural gas.

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gas Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Michael Cleland

Yes, for natural gas.

So finding and development costs are probably in the order of about $4, which is what the price is today. Most forecasters have an outlook for natural gas in North America that is something a little over $4 to something a little over $6. So if you're asking what is the right price, it might well be in that range. So no, $15 is the result of unusual events and not entirely rational responses.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Let me take you up on that. I'm worried about the speculative element here, because it clearly robs your industry of predictability, notwithstanding the fact that there may be more difficulty in trying to get these products, going to find them, going to exploit them, and, in the case of refining, having to refine the product. Obviously, it's a two-stage level. But I'm really interested in hearing from your association. Are you not concerned about how far this is getting out of hand?

Last year I was involved with getting Canadians out of harm's way with respect to the number of hurricanes we had, and there were some legitimate reasons. We had 25% of refining capacity wiped off as the hurricane went up the Mississippi, up refinery alley. But I think what people are seeing now, Mr. Chairman--and this is the second time we've seen it in the past couple of years--is a large group of people coming in based on what might be down the road. We saw it earlier this year with CIBC, and many others, saying, “Oh, gasoline will be $1.25 by the end of the summer.”

I think I was one of the few who looked like a bit of a heretic for saying it won't go anywhere. If anything, based on what BP and others were saying, it might actually come down as a result of so many players coming in at those prices of $15 per gigajoule or $1.30 for gasoline. You're going to get a lot of players at $70 a barrel coming in.

Does your industry have any concern about its ability to speak to other nations, other organizations, to try to curb the enthusiasm of a wildly speculative market that hurts your industry and hurts consumers and hurts manufacturing in this country?

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gas Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Michael Cleland

Not as such, but let me make a couple of points that I think you might agree with.

First of all, volatility is bad for consumers; it creates all sorts of situations. For example, somebody who thought their heating price was going to be such and such for the coming winter finds out that all of a sudden it doubles, because they perhaps didn't take advantage of some of the options that are available to smooth that out. It's bad for our industry. There's no question about that. No one particularly likes volatility. The producers don't like volatility because somebody who was planning their drilling this season on the assumption of $7 or $8 gas is today looking at something under $4, and all of a sudden you have a bunch of idle rigs.

What can you do about it?

In the charts we've given you one of the things you'll see is the comparison between North American and European and Asian markets, and you'll see that the European and Asian markets are indeed less volatile than the North American. The reason for that is fairly straightforward. The European and Asian markets are heavily based on long-term contracts. There are historical reasons for that and also some cultural reasons. They are long-term contracts generally tied to oil.

A question we've raised with regulators on several occasions is whether we could have more latitude to enter into long-term contracts, particularly for liquefied natural gas. We think we need that kind of underpinning, and we believe that would have some effect on volatility. The ones who don't like those long-term contracts are the consumer intervenors in our regulatory processes, because the downside of that is that you can get locked into prices that may stay high rather than coming down with markets.

So you're kind of caught between a rock and a hard place. As I say, in North America it is very much based on spot markets. It has worked very well for us up until recently. There are some sound arguments that we should be putting more long-term contracts in the mix.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. McTeague.

We're going now to Mr. Vincent.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Between the first quarter of the year 2000 and the fourth quarter of 2005, energy costs for industry increased by 94.3 per cent. Manufacturers believe there will be a further increase, which means the situation will only get worse.

Do you believe the manufacturing industry is right to believe that the situation is going to get worse?

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gas Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Michael Cleland

My colleagues may want to comment on this as well, but let me give you a couple of quick responses.

First, I think if you updated that number, that 94.3% would be a lot less today, and that would be across the board--petroleum products and natural gas, and to an extent, probably electricity as well. So I'm not sure what that number would actually be.

Is it likely that prices would go higher than they were last fall? I don't think so. It's hard to speculate on something like that, but they were extraordinary conditions that we faced last fall. So no, we won't see prices going back to the 1990s, but I'm not sure that the fears of prices going through the roof beyond what they were last fall are really justified.

Perhaps my colleagues might want to comment.

3:55 p.m.

Hans Konow President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Electricity Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Very quickly, on electricity, certainly the level of volatility in the prices is far less extreme than with respect to oil and gas, and that's structurally because we just have a different set of realities. As a starting point, 60% of Canadian electricity comes from hydro and another 15% or so comes from nuclear. So there's roughly 23% or so that comes from fossil fuels and is exposed to changes, but most of that is coal. Again, compared to natural gas and oil, coal has been much more predictable, but all of those energy inputs, and electricity itself, are on an upward trajectory. It's just at a much slower rate than the type of number you described.

My general impression is that we've gone through a kind of step change into a much higher price reality for the reasons that my colleague has explained. I don't think you could expect the prices to continue to increase at that level of volatility. In fact, with oil in the $60-some range, it's probably plus or minus $10 or $20 in an area that you would expect it to remain, with ups and downs, depending on geopolitical events, on weather, on a whole lot of other issues. I don't think you would see it go from that range to the $120 or $150 range, to doubling again, in the next couple of years.

Generally speaking, I think markets have worked reasonably well, even with respect to the kinds of impacts that Mr. McTeague was describing. I would think there are a lot of hedge fund operators who will be exceedingly careful not to get their positions out on a limb, the way a couple of these companies have found themselves. Those are pretty painful lessons to learn. There's no doubt that speculation can be a negative in terms of impact on consumers, but there is a self-righting in this process that when you get it wrong, you're basically out of business.

3:55 p.m.

Dane Baily Vice-President, Canadian Petrolum Products Institute, Energy Dialogue Group

Let's talk about the oil industry. I believe that it is more important to consider competitive factors from one industry to the next. The crude market is a global market. As a result, everyone is subject to the same price hikes.

Let's look at the table on page 10 of our document. The bottom line shows the price of crude oil in cents per litre. Trends are similar for products like gasoline and diesel fuel; the pattern is almost identical in each case.

However, if you look at the red line, it represents the price per barrel in U.S. dollars. We saw the price per barrel rise much higher than the others in cents per litre, because of the appreciation of the Canadian dollar. As a result, it costs energy consumers in Canada less than in the United States. So, we have become more competitive as a result of our higher dollar. We have an advantage in that sense.

It is also advantageous for the market to be a global market, because our competitors are subject to the same cost changes as our industry. That means that competitiveness and efficiency in our industry are more important than ever, and that energy costs are less important.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

I've heard industry people say that because the cost of oil has skyrocketed, prices for other types of energy, such as natural gas or electricity, have gone up, since these sectors did not want to lag behind.

Were these industries right to do that?

4 p.m.

Vice-President, Canadian Petrolum Products Institute, Energy Dialogue Group

Dane Baily

Markets are not integrated to that extent. There is an alternative to oil. If heavy oil becomes too expensive a source of energy for a given industry, it can start using electricity or, more often than not, natural gas. If demand drops in a sector but prices are high and the industry opts for something else, that has a tendency to increase prices.

Prices result primarily from meeting demand. In the oil sector, the reason why the market has been volatile for two or three years now is that in the past, global demand was about 80 to 85 million barrels a day. There was an excess production capacity of about four million barrels. However, because of increased demand in China and India in recent years, and the United States' economic strength, that margin has decreased to about one million barrels a day.

But let's talk about political problems, particularly with respect to Iran. That country's production is four million barrels a day. If it reduces the amount it supplies the market, that could mean that demand would outstrip supply. That has amplified the normal situation. And that is why supply is starting to increase. As soon as we have restored that safety margin globally, political events should not result in any price volatility.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Konow has a point, briefly; we're well over time.

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Electricity Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Hans Konow

It's one short point.

Electricity prices are not set by markets; they're set by regulators who look at the cost structure of the industry. A point on why electricity prices are going up is that there's a reinvestment curve occurring now, as we replace old equipment and build for the future. The cost of all new projects is higher than the historic costs. They're going up based on the cost structure.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Cleland.

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gas Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Michael Cleland

Mr. Chairman, I'll be very brief. Maybe we could come back to this in the rest of the conversation, but perhaps we could take a few minutes at some point to talk about the way markets, in this case the natural gas markets, actually function. I wouldn't want to leave the impression that somebody's in a position to say markets are going up, so I'm going to sell my product for more. It doesn't work that way.

Perhaps we could take a few minutes on that at some point.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay.

We will go to Mr. Carrie, for six minutes.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank you gentlemen for coming forward.

We've been undertaking this study of the manufacturing sector in Canada, and one of the things we've heard over and over again is about how the cost of energy is affecting their bottom line and also new investment into this country.

I had the opportunity to visit different auto sector areas. There was a big concern when Ontario was talking about brownouts and things along those lines. This really is something that might affect future investment in our country. Can you give us an idea how we as a government could maintain Canada's competitive edge to make sure we provide a good, sustainable supply of energy?

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Electricity Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Hans Konow

I can respond. You raised the issue of the reliability of the electricity system, and 2003 was a wake-up call for a lot of people in eastern North America, certainly in Ontario.

A lot has been done since then in terms of addressing the rules in North America, by working through the North American Electric Reliability Council, for instance, and setting it up as an international rules developer to maintain and operate the bulk transmission system. A lot of good technical work has gone on to try to prevent the cascading failure we had.

The federal government can do things. It was active in a bilateral relationship with the U.S. Department of Energy, but it also plays a key role in electricity development. Notwithstanding the provincial predominance in this field, there are virtually no major projects we can do that don't trigger certain federal powers, particularly environmental assessment rules, navigable waters, etc.

Part of the challenge in developing a major hydro project is how long it takes to get permits in place before you build. Most major projects can take somewhere in the range of ten to fifteen years to develop. That lead time leaves a lot of potential for market demand to absorb any surpluses and then put pressure on the system before the new resources are available.

From the federal government's point of view, if we have policy coherence and understand what we're trying to accomplish with respect to our energy systems from a policy point of view, then with that framework well-established in partnership with the provinces, the issue becomes that of regulatory efficiency and coordination. We're not arguing for less regulation or less stringent regulation, but for timely regulation, for processes that are time-bound in their commitments to get the job done and to coordinate with other jurisdictions that have the power to influence these projects. That would be an important step forward. Coordinating the multiple federal regulatory processes--because despite attempts at a one-window approach they aren't perfectly integrated--and then coordinating the federal and provincial regulatory processes so that project proponents can expect to have the whole package of requirements clear to them...that should all happen within a two-year timeframe, or something of that order.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

What about infrastructure?

Oh, sorry, go ahead.

4:05 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gas Association, Energy Dialogue Group

Michael Cleland

To underscore Mr. Konow's point about regulatory efficiency, if there's one positive thing the federal government can do, it should be in that realm. Regulation can be made more efficient in a lot of ways, more effective, certainly not less effective, and we can get the infrastructure built in a more timely way.

But there's more to it than that, and I hesitate to say this, but I think it's important: there's also what government shouldn't do. If you go back to slide 6 in my presentation, there's a story there. If you go back to 1990 and see what's happened to gas and oil production in Canada, you're seeing the effect of the investment from deregulated markets. Canada opened up for investment. It deregulated prices. It created conditions so that people wanted to come here and work to develop our resources. Going back to the mid-eighties, the federal government can pat itself on the back for starting to create those kinds of conditions. Reinforcing the message that this is the approach Canada is going to take is a really important part of it.