Industry Committee on Oct. 24th, 2006

[Jorge Garcia-Orgales]

We don't have a productivity problem.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

In comparison to some, you do.

Then we have a strong economy. We have low unemployment, but we're losing jobs. I'm just wondering what you're going to do that will help us in terms of our resources.

Am I over?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Yes, but we'll just finish with Mr. Garcia-Orgales. Then Ms. Aristeo wants to make a comment.

[Jorge Garcia-Orgales]

Also in answer to Mr. Lapierre, we support sectoral industrial strategies. We are working with employers in the steel sector and with the federal and provincial governments in the steel partnership sector council. We support that kind of strategy, like the automobile sector council, working together in partnership with provincial governments and employers to support the maintenance and development of new jobs and opportunities in the manufacturing sector.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Ms. Aristeo.

[Lina Aristeo]

I couldn't help but answer when I heard the last part of that question.

Concerning 28% higher wages, it's not everywhere. An apparel worker makes $10 an hour on average and has a pension plan and insurance and therefore can make it--can send their children to school and can afford to get sick. But you can't tell me that they're 28% overpaid. No way.

You can look at manufacturing in general, but look at it specifically as well. Low unemployment rate--maybe. So this $10-an-hour person who loses his job may get another job somewhere else because they have no choice; they have to get hired somewhere else. But then they may be earning minimum wage with no insurance and no pension plan. Don't tell me this is making a better Canada.

Finally, you asked us what we're doing. We're doing absolutely everything we can, but we're just the voice of working people. I ask you, what are you doing?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Monsieur Vincent.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Chair, I don't know what side of the table I should be sitting on. I could have answered the people on both sides at the same time.

I think some people have trouble understanding things that have been explained for years. I'm going to try to explain them to them once again.

I find it somewhat odd that it's being said today that employers and unions must form a team in order to save jobs. First of all, that's not my view of matters. However, since the government in power isn't doing much, we have to find solutions from the inside. It's a bit like expanding the inside of a plant when you want to install new equipment. That's what we're doing: we're trying to save the industry within the country. From what I can see, it's very hard to understand.

Do you believe the government can adopt new measures? With respect to the market economy — you referred to China earlier — we have one criterion. In Europe, they have five because they rely on salary. It seems to me that one of the first things the government should do would be to start saving our industry, saving the market. What do you think?

[François Vaudreuil]

First, I think that competitiveness is played out in the field, plant by plant. Second, I would say that, when you work with union members to save jobs, your adversary is the market. We have to work in the plant, with management, to find innovative strategies, both technological and social. I'm telling you, and I can send you studies that show this: the best economic and social performance is achieved when there is a partnership and worker participation.

As for government policies, we absolutely have to intervene. I'm going to give you an example of things that have happened in government. In a decision, the Canadian International Trade Tribunal recommended safeguards for the next three years, but the government refused to act. What will the consequence be? The business won't have the time to switch its low-end bicycle production to high-end bicycle production. In Waterloo, they're going to lose 300 jobs because the government refused to enact measures recommended by the Canadian International Trade Tribunal following a hearing during which everyone was heard. We think that's unacceptable.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I'm happy you referred to the bicycle case. Earlier, I said on this subject that, in 2004, the European tribunals had used the price of Mexican bicycles sold in Mexico as a benchmark. They concluded that China was engaging in dumping and that it was necessary to assess a 22 percent duty. That anti-dumping duty is still in effect. If we had a similar policy, we'd already be enjoying a 22 percent tax on bikes.

Do you think that, without us copying that practice, some kind of criterion could lead us to understand that other countries aren't achieving market economies? In that case, the country's businesses might have less difficulty.

[François Vaudreuil]

On that point, I'd say that, in my opinion, the case of Raleigh in Waterloo was simply indecent, disrespectful, inhuman and socially irresponsible.

[Lina Aristeo]

You referred to the International Trade Tribunal. You also mentioned irresponsibility and ultimately a disgusting attitude.

In the case of the tribunal, with regard to the clothing industry, what is irresponsible is to have waited 15 months before saying that there was a vice of form. Workers had filed a complaint so that safeguards would be implemented. The tribunal took 15 months to respond that they did not have the necessary authority to do so.

You asked whether we should start by saving the industry. We think it's abominable that workers have to work with the employer in order to save the industry. The workers are ready to do anything in their power to save it. However, the government, at some point, has to do its share and intervene. For a few months now, I've been constantly asked whether wages are going to be cut and whether the collective agreement will be reopened.

If what we want is a race to the bottom, we're on the right track. But if we want a decent economy in a decent country, then we're completely on the wrong track.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

The thing is to take charge of the matter ourselves and to save the industry without the help of the government, which, I believe, is overwhelmed and wants to abandon free enterprise.

[Lina Aristeo]

The government has a role to play that it's not playing right now. And there are no good answers to give the workers.

What's the government hiding from? What's it afraid of? Are these workers, immigrants, or people who belong to the middle class? It's hard for them to speak out. So we're here to do it on their behalf. But the government will have to act at some point. These people think the government has completely forgotten them. If the government decides it no longer wants the industry, let it say so clearly!

We don't care about apparel, and that's why we're not acting. But let's not pretend and put in some blanket measures to hide the real problem.

[Le président, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Now we go to Monsieur Arthur, for five minutes, please.

[André Arthur, Independent, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to try to check my impressions of what I heard with our panel of guests.

Thank you for being here.

Mrs. Aristeo, you bring us into the ethnic ghettos of economic Montreal.

Mr. Vaudreuil, you talked about the disaster of single-industry towns, and you described to us a third world that's setting in in places, geographically.

Mr. Garcia-Orgales, you compare us to a giant Argentina, a country that some years ago was throwing its dissidents from aircraft over the south Atlantic.

Mr. Georgetti, you talked to us about Canada getting poorer because corporations do not pay enough taxes.

Do you realize how depressing you are? Are those the points you want to make?

[Lina Aristeo]

You know, I'm not here to be depressing.

I came into this union only a couple of years ago. When most of these people were organizing, I was still in high school. When the workers I claim to represent came into the country, I wasn't born. So why am I here trying to save an industry that most people have completely forgotten?

I'm not trying to depress you. What I'm trying to say is that it's still an exciting industry. It's still an industry that is worth saving.

Montreal is third highest in North America for production of apparel. Samuelsohn makes the best high-end suits in North America. Jack Victor has a reputation. So does Coppley. I think this is a great, exciting industry. I think there are workers who depend on it.

If we're bringing out the depressing statistics, it's because the feedback we're getting sometimes is depressing. To be knocking on doors every day, to be rallying, to be talking, to be sending letters and getting no response, that's depressing. So when we sometimes feel or sound like we are at our wits' end, it's because we don't know what to go back and tell these workers.

Those hands are making great products. They're making great stuff that makes Canada look great on a North American and world scale. But they feel that no one cares about them. So sometimes we feel exasperated. I'm only the voice of the people who simply don't know what to do any more.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Garcia-Orgales, and then Mr. Georgetti.

[Jorge Garcia-Orgales]

Mr. Arthur, yes, I compared us with a country that was throwing people from planes. And I compared that because I was one of those.... I spent three years in jail in that country, and I'm here as a political refugee. This country saved my life. When I talk about that country, I know what I'm talking about, and I would appreciate it, when you talk, that you have a bit more sensitivity to the people you're talking to and about how you mention things.

Still today in Argentina there are questions about where those people are. And today in Argentina, for the first time since those times, we have new disappeared.

Honestly, when I talk about Argentina, I talk about a crisis in industry that hurts the economy. If you want to talk about human rights, I'm fully prepared to talk about how a crisis can also affect human rights. But I would--

[André Arthur, Independent, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

That's what's depressing. My impression is that all of that is very depressing. Maybe it's insensitive to be depressed, but I am.

[Jorge Garcia-Orgales]

I'm sorry, but that is the reality, as Lina said, that we deal with every day.

I dealt with that in my past in that country. I'm dealing with that today. I have to go to workers where the plants are closing to tell them that the best they can do is to go and apply...if they have the language and if they know how to operate a computer. On top of that, call centres are opening all over this country paying $12 or $13 an hour, but you have to speak English, you have to write English, and you need to know how to use a computer to work in a call centre at $12 an hour.

If that is not depressing, I don't know what to call it. But if you want to be a happy camper, be my guest.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Georgetti.

[Ken Georgetti]

Sir, I think your glib characterization of our concern for a third of a million Canadians losing their livelihood is depressing. It's disgusting, quite frankly.

[André Arthur, Independent, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Vaudreuil, did you really mean to give us such a depressing impression?

[François Vaudreuil]

First, since we regularly see these kinds of problems, it's important for us as union representatives to pass on to you the concerns, insecurity and, in some cases, the anxiety and distress that currently prevail in the work place.

The second item concerns the thinking we've begun and the fact that we're taking charge matters to get ourselves out of this precarious situation with the aid of the objectives we've set. In that context, the government must provide us with support.

For example, when J. Ford Ltd. ran into trouble in your riding, I intervened personally. I attended the general meeting, and it wasn't easy.

So this is a situation that we see every day, and, in every case, we have to develop different strategies to make it possible to keep jobs. We work in this field. We have good expertise. We intervene sector by sector. However, we need government support. You must help us so that people can live with dignity in our society. Ultimately, it's only that and all that that we're telling you.