Evidence of meeting #3 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dollar.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jayson Myers  Senior Vice-President and Chief Economist, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters
Garth Whyte  Executive Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Corinne Pohlmann  Director, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
David Stewart-Patterson  Executive Vice-President, Canadian Council of Chief Executives

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

We'll call to order this meeting of the industry, science and technology committee. Gentlemen, may I have your attention.

This is the first session of many studying the current state of the manufacturing sector here in Canada and the challenges facing this very important sector. We at the committee have identified four different areas, but the witnesses here are certainly free to address any other issues as well. First of all, there's the competitiveness of the manufacturing sector facing the appreciating value of the Canadian dollar; secondly, the increasing costs of high energy; thirdly, challenges faced by globalization; and fourthly, the availability of skilled labour.

We have with us here today some very distinguished witnesses, who will have up to 10 minutes for presentations for each group. If you don't want to take the 10 minutes, that's fine; it just leaves more time for questions and comments.

I'll list them all, but the first witness we have is from the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, Jayson Myers, senior vice-president and chief economist. Secondly, we have the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, with Garth Whyte, executive vice-president, presenting along with Corinne Pohlmann, director of national affairs, and Lucie Charron, policy analyst. Thirdly, from the Canadian Council of Chief Executives we have Mr. David Stewart-Patterson, executive vice-president, and, secondly Sam Boutziouvis, vice-president economics and international trade.

We'll start with the CME, then go to the CFIB, and then to the Canadian Council of Chief Executives. You have up to 10 minutes each, and then we'll open up for questions and comments. We have a full house here, so obviously there is a great interest by members in this issue.

Welcome to the committee. We look forward to your presentations.

11:05 a.m.

Dr. Jayson Myers Senior Vice-President and Chief Economist, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters

Thanks very much, Mr. Chairman. My name is Jay Myers. I'm the senior vice-president and chief economist with Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters. I'm delighted to be able to come today and speak about the current status of Canada's manufacturing sector and some of the challenges as we move ahead in a very challenging global economy.

I've brought several pieces of information for you. I'm going to be talking to this presentation, which is an overview of the current economic status of manufacturers. I thought we could maybe start with that to get the discussion rolling today. I've also brought this document, which is the executive summary of our manufacturing 2020 initiative. That initiative was launched about two years ago, and it involved over 3,500 manufacturers and community leaders across the country in 98 meetings, talking about the future of manufacturing in Canada. It summarizes some of the challenges, the changes, going on in the industry and what people told us was necessary to achieve a successful manufacturing sector in the country.

I'm also including this document. It's an inventory that's been prepared by 29 different federal departments, listing all federal programs for manufacturing. It has been prepared over the past year in response to our 2020 initiative, really taking stock of current programs the federal government has for manufacturing. So I want to table that information as we begin our discussion.

First of all, manufacturing is Canada's largest single business sector. It employs 2.1 million people. Two years ago it employed 2.3 million people. It's an industry with shipments of over $610 billion. It's important not only because of the number of people it employs and the direct contribution it makes to the Canadian economy, which is about 18% of the Canadian economy, but for every dollar of manufacturing output there are over three dollars of total economic activity generated as a result in the primary sector, the services sectors, as well as in the public sector.

It accounts for two-thirds of our exports. It accounts for two-thirds of our private sector research and development in this country. It's made tremendous strides in improving productivity. It's made very strong strides in improving energy efficiency, and as a result, the sector has reduced its greenhouse gas emissions by 7.4%, below 1990 levels, as of the year 2003. So it's a sector that is in the midst of change and at the direct forefront of all the competitive pressures in the global economy today. The top priority right now, the top issue, is the appreciation of the Canadian dollar. But that's just the short-term challenge the sector is facing.

We have to look at issues like skill shortages, which is operating as a real production constraint today in the province of Alberta and western Canada. We have to look at the impact of China, of India, and the newly emerging industrial economies, not only as competitors but as very strong market opportunities for Canada as well. And we have to talk about this sector's readiness to adjust to those challenges.

This graph shows the growth of the manufacturing sector over the last 15 years. I began working with the Canadian Manufacturers Association 15 years ago, at a time when everybody said manufacturing was going out of business in Canada. That's what a lot of people are saying right now: who cares about manufacturing? Unfortunately, people were saying that just as manufacturing went into the strongest growth period it had ever witnessed in this country, doubling in size over 10 years.

During the 1990s, manufacturing was the top job creator in Canada. A lot has changed over that period. The low Canadian dollar accounted for about a third of that growth, but much of that growth came about as a result of the restructuring that took place in manufacturing. Companies were exporting more. In 1990 we exported one-quarter of what was manufactured in Canada. Today we export over 60% of what's produced in this country, and 50% of it is exported into the United States. The Canadian dollar is climbing against the U.S. currency. It has a big impact because it's a price cut; it's gone up by 50% and it's a price cut on export sales. If 50% of your sales are exports to the United States, it has a big bottom-line impact.

As a result of free trade, Canadian manufacturers couldn't compete on low cost and high volume; they had to compete on something different. They competed on specialization. They became much more specialized, much more customized, much more high value, much more service-oriented, and much more flexible in the way they were able to produce products and services in response to changing customer demands. I think that's given Canadian manufacturers an edge over their U.S. counterparts. Ninety percent of Canadian companies, Canadian establishments, are small to mid-size companies with fewer than 500 employees. In large companies, too, we're seeing change across the manufacturing sector. It's a very dynamic sector, but one that's faced with a lot of challenges, primarily today as a result of the climbing dollar.

For your information, the next three graphs just show the growth trends by province and by sector and manufacturer. This is from March to March. Overall we saw 3% growth in total shipments. The strength is in western Canada. The main challenge in western Canada is the lack of people. The lack of people today means that manufacturers cannot continue to grow as they have been over the past couple of years. Unless we correct that problem, and very rapidly, we'll see more product being contracted out, if we're lucky, to other parts of the country, but if we're not lucky, to the United States and China.

The real weakness in manufacturing is in Ontario. Right now, a large part of it is due to weakness in the automotive sector, where there is an over-capacity of product for some companies. But it's also weakness in a lot of the supply chain. Of course, if you're looking at automotive-aerospace, you're looking at some of the largest supply chains you can imagine. For every dollar of manufacturing output we're looking at nine dollars in extra economic activity.

You can see here, on the first page, sector by sector, the weakness in the textile sector, the weakness in the paper and wood products sectors, and on the second page you can see the transportation equipment sector. This masks weakness in the automotive sector, where production was falling. The transportation numbers are up because of stronger aerospace production. These sector-by-sector growth rates I think right now—and it does differ across the country—are a mirror of what's happening in almost every manufacturing sector of the country.

I want to draw your attention to this other graph, though. It's one thing to get product out the door; it's another thing to make money on what you're producing. This graph shows the difference between prices and costs over a six-year period, from the beginning of 2000 to the end of last year. It shows that on average, prices are pretty much stable. The closer you are to your customer, the less likely you are to be able to pass costs along to your customer, simply because if you raise your prices, your competition is going to take your business away.

The fact is, when you get to the consumer products, the machinery equipment sector, prices in those sectors are falling. As I said, the rapid appreciation of the dollar is like a price cut on your export sales. A 50% appreciation is a pretty rapid price cut to adjust to. The problem is that there aren't very many costs of doing business that are falling. Labour rates are just keeping pace with inflation, but they're up by over 18%. The cost of raw materials, the cost of energy, and the cost of transportation are all rising, and very rapidly.

The only way companies can offset those rising costs at a time when their prices are falling is by becoming more productive or by going out of business. And companies right now are doing both. They are focusing on the bottom line, on improving efficiency, on cutting costs. That's why we're seeing the number of layoffs we're seeing. We're at record levels of manufacturing production in this country, but we're seeing approximately 150,000 job losses in the sector. A large part of that is because of the need to improve productivity.

I'm not going to take you through any more of these slides, but if you look through them, you will see the relationship between productivity and the rising dollar. Productivity has increased by about 5.5% over the last year. That makes manufacturers, on average in this country, competitive at approximately an 82-cent dollar. It's not necessarily the level of the dollar that hurts; it's how fast it has risen. Companies are really struggling to keep up to that rapid rate of appreciation.

I think we're going to see about 100,000 job losses in manufacturing this year. I think we'll see more production closures. We're already going to see a number of job losses as a result of companies deciding to close product lines simply because they're not economically viable in Canada.

But that's the short term, and as we go on here—I've provided an analysis and we can talk about it later—the long-term question is how we respond to the competitive challenges of China and India and Brazil and Mexico. How do we take advantage of this great investment opportunity in western Canada? How do we make sure we have people and organizations that can respond in an innovative way to make sure they are improving their productivity and innovation to drive higher-value business? Finally, how do we make sure we have the investment in technology, in innovation, in assets that's necessary to drive those productivity improvements? That's the challenge we're facing today.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Myers.

We'll move right over to Mr. Whyte, I believe, who will be presenting on behalf of the CFIB.

11:15 a.m.

Garth Whyte Executive Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Thanks so much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, everyone, and congratulations. It's nice to see everybody around the table. I think it should be a fun session, and we look forward to working with you folks.

I think most of you know that we have 105,000 business owners as members and that we represent independent business. We represent small and medium-sized enterprises. They're 45% of GDP and 60% of total employment. I don't think most of you know, though, that we have 11,000 manufacturing members, which makes us one of the biggest, if not the biggest, representatives of the manufacturing sector. And as Jay pointed out, 90% of the manufacturing sector is small and medium-sized enterprises. So it's not surprising that we have such large numbers.

We want to talk about the challenges facing not only manufacturers but also the small and medium-sized enterprise economy, because you'll find similarities between them.

Corinne and Lucie put together some graphs from several of our reports. You have this package before you, and I'd like you to go to the right-hand side, which is the deck I'm going to be presenting. I would also like you to pull out this...because it is the business barometer I'll be referring to, if it's okay—because it's important.

This first graph is of our business barometer, an indicator we use, and that is also used by the Bank of Canada. We release it quarterly. It's reported by Bloomberg and others around the world. It's an amazing indicator, based on business owners' expectations for their own business. Their assessment of the economy is as good a guess as anyone else's in this room. In their assessment of their own business, they're experts, and that has made them incredibly accurate in tracking the GDP. If you look at the last page of this report on the quarterly business barometer, you can see our indicator and you can see the GDP. It's been amazingly accurate in terms of employment and what GDP is doing. There's a little divergence, probably because of fuel costs and our having another minority government. There are some things here, but by and large the barometer has been incredibly accurate, and that's why Bank of Canada Governor Dodge wants to meet with us two or three times a year to discuss it, because they have a pretty good idea of what's happening.

I also want to refer you to page 2 of this business barometer, because on that page we break out expectations by province and sector. This was done in March, and it includes expectations for the year. If you look at figure 4 and you look at manufacturing, manufacturing is actually tracking up. There are other sectors that are hurting more than manufacturing. Take a look at agriculture; look at wholesale; look at transportation. They're tracking down. So I just wanted to bring that to people's attention.

If I could move to the next graph, we asked our members, who are experts in this, about their employment plans. If I asked you about your office, you could tell me what you're going to be doing in your office; if we ask about their business, they can tell us what their employment plans are. You can see in regard to expectations for employment—anticipated employment plans—that in the entire small and medium-sized enterprise economy, 31% said they were going to increase their employment; 7% said they were going to decrease employment; and 63% said there'd be no change.

We broke out that number for the manufacturing sector, and we found that the manufacturing sector of small and medium-sized enterprises is even more optimistic about employment. This is where we're diverging with Jay. It might be a “large versus small” issue, but if you look here, 40% of over 300 respondents said they were going to increase employment this year, 8% said they were going to decrease employment, and 52% said they were going to stay the same.

We broke out some numbers for you, very quickly, on the dollar. Again, we looked at the general population, and as Jay pointed out again, it doesn't mean there aren't challenges, especially with the dollar. It's for the general population of small business. If you can see the red, 33% said a lower dollar would help them; 19%, in the white, said a higher dollar would help them, or one out of five; and in the yellow, 39% said it would have no effect. Well, if you look at manufacturing, there's no surprise: 62%, or double the full population, said that a lower dollar helps them. So the higher dollar is definitely an issue—though about 15% in the manufacturing sector said a higher dollar helps them. I agree with Jay on this. We've been saying over and over that it's not the level of the dollar, it's the rate of the increase and whether or not they can factor it in.

On the next page, when we asked all of our members, what are you basing your expectations for your business and your employment plans on, or what are the factors influencing you, graph 6 shows that most of the impacts affecting their performance have worsened. The conditions have worsened, particularly for interest rates, insurance premiums, energy prices, and other input prices.

I want to pause for a moment and talk about insurance. We asked this committee, when you sat on different sides, to look at insurance. Even now, when you have been told insurance is not a problem, 55% of our members are saying that cost and access are still a problem. We think this committee should at least look at what's going on with this.

Jay, we delve into this more deeply. In manufacturing, one of their big issues is insurance, its high cost and access to it. I don't see why this committee can't look at this as a non-partisan issue. We have lots of information to bring to the table. This is not to go after the insurance industry at all, but just to understand what's going on, just like you're doing with the manufacturing sector.

If we break out the factors affecting manufacturing performance, you can see that they are very similar to those affecting the general population, but the impacts are even deeper and have become harder. In particular, the impacts of market wages have become harder—much harder than for the general population—and the impacts of energy prices too.

Corinne has broken out some information on that from some of these reports, if you don't mind talking about those, Corinne.

11:20 a.m.

Corinne Pohlmann Director, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Sure. Thanks, Garth.

To illustrate a little of the impacts of energy pricing on small and medium-sized firms and the manufacturing sector, I wanted to show you a survey that CFIB did last fall, following Hurricane Katrina, when the fuel prices suddenly spiked to a certain degree. A lot of firms were feeling the impact fairly quickly, and we wanted to get a feel at that point. We actually presented this information to the industry committee last fall. It is the second piece on the right-hand side of your folder, behind the QBB--that presentation.

I'm just going to pull out two quick ones here. First we asked them about what impacts those higher fuel prices were having right then, at that point, on their firms. You'll see on this chart that the red bar indicates businesses losing money as a result. For manufacturing, about 15% said that at that point they were losing money as a result, but the interesting thing was that 71% said they were still profitable, but less so, and another 9% were saying profits remained intact.

When you look at the chart, you can see that industries like transportation, primary, and agriculture were finding it much more difficult to deal with this issue at that time.

The next chart looks at it going forward. If those types of fuel costs remain going forward, how will you be able to survive in the future? Can it be sustainable? What was interesting here too is that the manufacturing industries, again, seem to be a little more adaptable than some of the other industries if high fuel prices continue to be in place, and we have found them to remain around the one-dollar mark, and higher, right across the country.

Manufacturing, the red bar, says businesses may not be able to survive if prices stay at today's levels. You can see 5% said that was the case. That is far fewer than in agriculture, where one in four said they would be struggling to survive if those prices remained high. However, 42% did say they would have to make significant changes in investment, employment, or costs in order to deal with the high fuel prices, so that is something to consider. That is in the industry average across all of the different sectors.

Finally, 51%--about half of them--did say they could deal with the current fuel prices with only minor adjustments to their businesses. They are able to adapt to that situation.

Now, we recognize that energy prices are more than just fuel costs. There are also electricity costs and other things as well. We just pulled out some data this morning; we asked our members about the significance of input costs to their businesses and actually pulled out electricity costs from fuel costs. Even there, among the manufacturing firms, we found that fuel costs have by far the biggest impact right now--even more than electricity costs, for example. I think this is a fairly good indicator of how manufacturing firms--and all sectors of the economy, really--are dealing with this issue.

This isn't the only thing they're dealing with, of course. We also have a chart showing our members' high-priority issues. Two issues they have indicated are very important to their businesses are government regulations and paper burden, and the shortage of qualified labour. Those are the two fastest-growing issues our members are facing.

When you go to the bottom chart, you'll see that the concern over the shortage of labour has been broken down a little bit more. You get a better sense of how the skilled labour issue is being addressed across the country and across sectors. You can see it is obviously a much bigger issue in western Canada than it is as you move east. When you look at it by sector, you'll notice manufacturing is certainly within the top five, but again it is not the only sector feeling this issue is having a big impact on them.

Now these are perceptions, of course. We wanted to get some facts around how big this issue is. Could you look at slide 12?

Early this year we released a report called Help Wanted, which is also in your package. It's the last report on the right-hand side. Through that report we were able to determine that right now the vacancy rate among small and medium-sized firms is at 3.2%, an increase from 2.7% about a year ago.

That may not seem like a lot, but when you translate it into the number of positions, it actually results in over 255,000 vacant positions; when we say long-term vacant positions, we mean they've been open for more than four months, so this is a serious issue. When we ask the percent of firms with long-term vacancies, we see that more than one firm in four is actually dealing with this issue going forward.

The next chart looks at it broken out by sector. You can see that in manufacturing the vacancy rate is growing fairly quickly, but it is still not as significant as what we see in many other sectors facing this issue in the economy.

11:25 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Garth Whyte

Could I have two minutes, please? I would like to skip to slide 15, because we're going to be talking about things that this committee really can't do much about, and I want to talk about something this committee can do something about today.

We've surveyed our members on productivity priorities in manufacturing and all businesses, and of course they talk about what would increase their productivity. But one of the issues that's there and that comes out on top over and over again is dealing with regulation and paper burden.

A major report we did, which has been cited, found that it's costing businesses $33 billion to deal with all the levels of government. Eliminating this regulation and paper burden is a cost-effective way to increase productivity and to help businesses of all sizes and from all sectors, and you guys can deal with it right now.

We worked together with all of you, and you voted for a private member's bill, Bill C-212, the cost-recovery bill. It's law, and it's not being implemented. It could be implemented today. I think this committee should look at that and push it, because that would also really help enhance productivity and lower some costs to businesses.

Mr. Chair, I won't go over all those graphs, but I really encourage you to look at them. There's a template here that can be used; this report talks about it. We're co-chairing the paper burden committee with the industry department. You should call the minister before this committee and ask him to talk about it. I think he would. It's a non-partisan issue, and it's something that we can all work on together to really help alleviate the high dollar, high fuel costs, and all the other things.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Whyte.

Just for your information, we will likely have the minister at some point. We have officially written to him as a committee to ask him to appear before us on this and other issues.

Mr. Stewart-Patterson, you'll be presenting on behalf of the Council of Chief Executives.

11:30 a.m.

David Stewart-Patterson Executive Vice-President, Canadian Council of Chief Executives

I will. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think my colleagues have offered you a pretty detailed review of the challenges facing the sector, so I won't go into a long exposition here, but I would, if I may, offer a few comments to lead us into the question period.

The first comment I have has to do with a remarkable and somewhat troubling divergence within the Canadian economy. Essentially, the Canadian growth story has become a tale of two economies. We have the manufacturing sector and we have the resource sector.

For resource producers, of course, global demand is rising. As a result, so are prices and so are profits. For manufacturers, on the other hand, it's global supply that's increasing. The result, of course, is downward pressure on the prices they receive, and therefore lower profits—and in some cases no profits. For the resource sector, of course, high energy prices are a source of more profit. For manufacturers, they're a source of higher costs and therefore of lower profits.

The result is also a divergence between regions of Canada; I think that's significant to note. Much of the west, driven by the resource sector, has virtually full employment and severe shortages of labour in many skilled trades. Labour shortages I think are an issue for every sector in the country, and that's a long-term trend that's not going to change.

In the west, wages and other costs are rising particularly sharply. In central Canada, by contrast, the manufacturing sector has been shedding jobs. So far, those job losses have been absorbed by other sectors, so the economy as a whole still looks relatively healthy.

I think the point that's relevant here is that the inflationary pressures in the west have pushed interest rates higher than the economic situation in the industrial heartland, taken in isolation, would warrant. The point I'm making to start with here, Mr. Chair, is that I don't think we can look to the Bank of Canada to address the challenges facing the manufacturing sector, because of this regional split within our economy. I think we have to set monetary policy aside and look at what else governments could or should do.

The second point I'd like to address is the contrast between past performance, which has been pretty strong, and the future risks, which we think are considerable. The extent to which manufacturers in many industries have managed to keep their shipments growing despite the multiple challenges of intense competition from China or India, rising energy costs, the rising dollar, and those rising interest rates, is quite remarkable. Investment and the deployment of new technologies, new machinery and equipment, has been strong; it's been growing at double digit rates. Where Canadian manufacturers can find ways to compete, they are doing so.

The performance to date, however, is no cause for complacency. I think the risks, looking ahead, are significant. There is a lot of talk about the potential for the Canadian dollar to rise even further. It's of course a rise primarily against the U.S. dollar, not so much against other currencies. But as Jay has pointed out, when half of what we produce goes into the U.S. market, where we stand against the U.S. dollar has a big impact on how much money the manufacturing sector makes or loses.

Again, every company faces a different cost structure, but at some point every company hits the point where they ask, is it worthwhile to carry on? Can I make further investments that will make it profitable to continue from a Canadian base, or do I have to pack up shop altogether, or figure whether there's somewhere else that I can make what I need to make and do it profitably?

The other risk going forward is the macro risk, and that's in terms of where the United States economy is going. With such a large proportion of what we produce going into the U.S. market, it's not just the exchange rate that matters; it's how much American customers are buying.

It's fair to say that Canada has bitter experience with the consequences of long and continuing and rising government deficits combined with a high and rising current account trade deficit. That's where the U.S. is today. It's obviously a much larger, more resilient economy. There's no consensus about how long the current situation can go on, but I think it is fair to say that there is a significant risk for Canadian exporters looking to sell into the U.S. market. It's certainly foolhardy to assume that we can count on that demand carrying on at current levels.

Let me turn quickly to what we may want to discuss about what to do about the competitiveness challenge. The fact is, it's a complex problem. There's no silver bullet here; there's no one thing companies or governments can do that's going to suddenly make Canada the best place in the world to do business.

We produced a paper earlier this year called “From Bronze to Gold”. It was distributed to all members. We have some extra copies here if people need a new copy. I can address it if you want, but the fact is we suggested that even in the current political context—a minority Parliament, where, for measures to proceed, we need cooperation across the floor of the House—there is a lot that can and should be done.

A lot can and should be done. We put forward ideas for moving forward on everything from families in communities, education and immigration, innovation, regulation--the kind of thing Garth was talking about, environment and energy policy, and of course infrastructure and taxation.

The recent federal budget made a very important commitment to spend a good chunk of the next year developing a comprehensive plan, strategy, for making this Canadian economy more competitive. We certainly look forward to working with members of the committee, with members of all parties in this House, in shaping that forward agenda and a broad strategy that is going to produce more jobs and higher incomes for Canadian families over the next generation.

I would, if you'll indulge me, Mr. Chair, just like to focus on one aspect of policy that is especially important to the manufacturing sector right now, and that's the corporate tax side. It matters to manufacturers now because now is when manufacturers need to make fundamental choices about major investments on whether to invest in growth. The issue for them isn't investing in new technology, in new machinery and equipment to stay in business; the issue is where they invest. The issue for this committee is to figure out how we persuade Canadian companies that they can continue to grow profitably in a global market from a Canadian base.

In that respect, we need to look at two things. The reality is Canada sells largely into the U.S. market. New manufacturing operations, expansions, are going to be concerned with access to the U.S. market and that means a continuing concern in terms of the potential for delays at the border flowing from the U.S. preoccupation with matters of security. We also have concerns about the state of border infrastructure, given the huge increase in flows north and south that we've seen over the last decade.

The point I'm making here is that the border constitutes a risk. If your business is built on selling to customers across North America, there's already a powerful incentive to locate your operation in the bigger of the two markets between Canada and the United States. That means Canada has to figure out how we establish something compelling that says to investors, that says to businesses, “Canadian communities are where you ought to be”. Now there are lots of elements to that strategy, and I think the human resource side is one the committee may want to delve into in more detail.

In terms of making a compelling case to investors, the federal budget 2006 took a very important step forward. First, it acknowledged that in competing for investment with the United States, Canada needs to establish a meaningful advantage in the overall corporate tax rate with respect to the United States. We shouldn't just settle for something that's vaguely in the same ballpark. Second, it recognized that what matters to new investment is not just the statutory corporate income tax rate at the federal level, but the combined impact of all forms of corporate taxation at all levels of government, essentially the so-called marginal effective tax rate on capital.

Third, I think it noted that the federal government has done a lot of the heavy lifting in this respect. The previous government introduced a total of seven percentage points in cuts in the corporate income tax rate and proposed additional cuts over the next few years, which the new government has included in its budget and which we're hoping will go forward expeditiously. All of that is very important, and I want to recognize the progress that's been made.

But I think more needs to be done; provincial governments really need to step up to the plate at this time. The months ahead are going to see some extensive discussions on what's been called the fiscal imbalance. That essentially is the provinces saying they need help in terms of raising the money they need to deliver services Canadians are counting on that lie within their jurisdiction. In that discussion it's clear that both taxation and transfer payments are going to be on the table.

I'm suggesting it's critical for provincial governments to consider not only what they need, but how they can contribute to forging a stronger Canadian economy. The federal budget pointed out one item in particular, the continued use of provincial retail sales taxes in some jurisdictions that add to the cost of business inputs. The Atlantic provinces and Quebec have both switched to value-added taxes, and that's a major plus in terms of enabling and encouraging business investment. The remaining provinces with retail sales taxes need to follow suit as quickly as possible.

I want to conclude by suggesting that this challenge is most urgent in the province of Ontario. Ontario is the heartland of manufacturing. That is where, along with Quebec, the challenges of manufacturing are being felt most stiffly.

I think manufacturers need to make significant investments, particularly in Ontario, as well as in Quebec, if we're going to maintain and grow jobs in this sector nationwide. Yet research that's currently under way--and it's still at the draft stage, I have to say--at the C.D. Howe Institute suggests that Ontario has become not only the highest corporate tax jurisdiction in Canada, but it may be the highest tax jurisdiction among 32 countries worldwide in terms of the effective tax rate on business investment.

I'm mentioning it here today not because I'm expecting this committee to change the policy of the Ontario government, but because I note the presence of members of this House from more than one party who represent ridings in Ontario, whose constituents depend on a strong and growing manufacturing sector. I would simply encourage the members from Ontario around this table to consider talking to their colleagues at the provincial level, and giving this matter of the combined corporate tax burden greater attention at the provincial level and not simply looking to Ottawa to solve the problem for them.

With that, let me conclude my introductory remarks so we can move to questions.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Stewart-Patterson.

I thank all of you for your presentations.

I should say a special thank you for putting them together on such short notice. It's exceptional of all of you.

We will start with questions now. I believe we have Mr. Lapierre and Mr. McTeague splitting the first six minutes, with three minutes each.

Mr. Lapierre.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Jean Lapierre Liberal Outremont, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you.

First off, in terms of jobs, we are hearing two different things. On the one hand, there were apparently 200,000 jobs lost over the last two years, yet on the other hand, those who are really responsible for creating jobs believe they will be hiring more people in the future than they have in the past.

Would the explanation for that be that you represent SMEs which will still be creating jobs in the future, whereas many jobs have been lost on the big business side over the last few years? If not, this is difficult to understand.

11:40 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Garth Whyte

Yes. Following September 11, I sat with my colleagues here in March 2002, the day that Nortel said they were cutting 15,000 jobs. We came out and said we thought there were between 250,000 and 300,000 jobs that needed to be filled in 2002. We were wrong; 500,000 jobs were filled. That was based on our barometer, but the answer is different because of the particular sector.

As Jay pointed out, 90% of the manufacturers are small and medium-sized enterprises, but I'm not sure there are enough of them to pick up the slack for the large firms. When it's the total population, they're able to pick it up, but when it's in a particular sector they may not be able to. It takes a lot of small and medium-sized enterprises to pick up 15,000, or 20,000, or 100,000 jobs in manufacturing. That's one example.

The other reason, we think, is that it's also regional. We have a lot of members in Alberta, in B.C., on the Prairies, and in Atlantic Canada, and in some of those regions they're doing very well. They're not hurting as much. They're not going to the States like Quebec and Ontario.

So those are two possible reasons. I think we might be in violent agreement.

11:45 a.m.

Senior Vice-President and Chief Economist, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters

Dr. Jayson Myers

I think there's another factor here as well, apart from the regional issue, which is very important. One of the common factors that we see associated with the job closures so far is overcapacity in that particular product sector. In just about every major closure that I know of, what we've seen is a consolidation of production outside of Canada. What's happening is that, in many cases, the small Canadian establishment of a larger global company is not being able to continue along with the product mandate, because a decision has been made that it's just not economically viable to keep that product in production in Canada. Many of the closures we've seen, we've seen in consolidation.

These employment numbers that we present are the net job figures. Behind this we're seeing job growth, and also many, many more job losses than we're seeing here, but we're just looking at the net figures. In fact, if you look up the job losses in Ontario and Quebec together, they're more than that total over that period of time. So again, you're picking up some of the regional expansion in the west.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Jean Lapierre Liberal Outremont, QC

I have a second question, Mr. Chairman. I know that we'll be splitting our time, but I wanted to address the issue of regional differences. If we look at the various sectors, we see that there has been a decline in the textile and clothing industry, as well as in softwood, paper and furniture, which are significant sectors for Quebec. So, there is a regional difference there.

Our committee is considering the manufacturing sector, but I personally think we should do so from a sector-by-sector standpoint rather than a regional standpoint, as we may be off on the wrong track. I'm wondering whether the government should also consider... We tried to create an aerospace policy, for instance, but that seems to be on the back burner, and we never came up with an automobile policy.

So, based on your experience, do you think the committee should consider the issue on a sector-by-sector basis? We shouldn't bite off more than we can chew, and the differences are so major that it may be difficult to have a clear view of the issue if we do not proceed on a sector-by-sector basis.

11:45 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Council of Chief Executives

David Stewart-Patterson

I think the answer is both. There are broad conditions, and what we're suggesting is there are ways that governments can improve competitiveness conditions for doing business across all sectors.

But I agree that each sector has its own particular challenges. If you're talking about aerospace, obviously one of the big challenges is the fact that it's a global industry in which a lot of the competitors are heavily subsidized. How do we deal with that? If we're talking about automotives, there's a global over-capacity issue.

As manufacturers worldwide are figuring out how to get capacity down, into line with global demand, Canada's strategy to date—and I think quite intelligently—has been to shift to looking at not just plant production jobs and how many of those we can hang on to, but whether we can get a bigger share of the design work and the intellectual content, as opposed to just the physical content, within automobiles.

That really is the broader challenge. We have to figure out industry by industry where it is that Canada can compete. What jobs are we trying to compete for, and what does it take for us to be the right place to make those investments?

May 16th, 2006 / 11:45 a.m.

Senior Vice-President and Chief Economist, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters

Dr. Jayson Myers

I think we need a more common strategy as well, though. As we were travelling across the country talking to manufacturers in communities, everywhere we went we were told the business was different, that the communities were different, that “we're unique”. Every business sees the problems only according to their business or business sector.

Believe it or not, on the west side of Toronto we were told that we have to prepare a different business strategy there, because business in Etobicoke is not the same as business in Scarborough, and heaven forbid if anybody is the same as Toronto; that just doesn't happen. And business in la Beauce is different from business in Vancouver.

The second thing we learned, though, is that everybody is unique in extremely similar ways across this country; that the issues are the same. They are issues of skills, and high business costs, and the dollar, and taking advantage of those new market opportunities, and building a flexible, highly trained workforce.

Those are all common issues, and in a sense they're issues that the automotive industry, the aerospace industry, the machinery and equipment industry, and the textile industry are all facing.

The third thing we learned, though, is that people are looking for a local solution. What may be one of the most challenging parts of this strategy for manufacturing that we have to come to grips with is that while we need a national vision for a competitive and prosperous manufacturing sector in Canada, we need local institutions that are competitive. Whether they're the colleges or the investment and the R and D centres, that's where the real difference is at the local level.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Whyte, you had a brief comment. Then we'll go to Monsieur Crête.

11:50 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Garth Whyte

I believe if you go sector by sector you're cutting out our sector. You're cutting out half the economy.

You mentioned aerospace; you mentioned automotive. I think there are generic policies you can focus on. We didn't get a chance to say it, but 40% of manufacturers said the border was a major issue. Regulations are a major issue. Shortage of labour is a tidal wave coming at us.

One we didn't talk about is a shortage of entrepreneurs, with people passing on their businesses—a huge issue. In the next five years, 40% of our members want to sell their firms. Who is buying those firms?

So I think there are more broad-based issues that will help everyone, rather than just trying to target a particular sector.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Monsieur Crête.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for your presentations. They were very clear, and enlightening. I found that you gave us an interesting overview of the situation, especially when Mr. Stewart-Patterson referred to the world as being divided into two: the energy industries, other sectoral industries and the western regions versus the rest of Canada.

We have here a very revealing table from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business indicating when SME owners could begin retiring. Apparently, 71% of SME owners will be out of the market in 10 years' time. These people are 50 or 55 years old today and they wonder whether they are going to hand over the company to their children or to other people, whether they will shut down or whether they will sell their companies to the Americans, given the current context.

If I've understood you correctly, you've all said that there needed to be a clear policy and clear political will with regard to the manufacturing industry.

I would like a response from each group to my question. If you were the industry minister or the Primer Minister of Canada, in what direction would you like to see the government go?

Let me give you an example. Earlier on, Mr. Stewart-Patterson said that as we do not have much influence over the Bank of Canada, we need to find other solutions.

The Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters have an important page on the role of government, but I would like each one of you to tell us what you feel is the most important thing that is needed in order to have a strong manufacturing sector, not only from a global perspective, but in all regions of Canada.

11:50 a.m.

Senior Vice-President and Chief Economist, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters

Dr. Jayson Myers

Maybe I could start off. If you don't have investment you don't have innovation, you don't have employment, and you don't have a successful business. If you don't have investment you don't have the ability of small companies to grow into medium-sized companies or to manage the growth they have right now or to take advantage of all those market opportunities.

I agree with what David said, the first priority has to be the investment climate. I would go one step further by saying that in the face of a high dollar we should be looking at taking steps like the Americans did when the American dollar was at record highs against other currencies and move on to an accelerated depreciation system, because this goes to the marginal effective tax rate on investment. It goes to the issue of cashflow, which is the major issue for investment, and it's the major thing that's under pressure today with the high dollar.

And we should be doing something, even if it's on a temporary basis, as the Americans did three years ago when they went to the bonus depreciation system. I think we should consider going back to what the capital depreciation system was for Canadian industry, which was a two-year writeoff.

If we did something like that it would respond to the short-term pressures and would provide that incentive for investment that I think we really need right now and that we can.... There are all sorts of other issues that government can touch on that are also very important, but unless we repair that investment situation, then we don't have to talk about skills and we don't have to talk about innovation because we'll have fewer and fewer companies that are actually doing that in Canada and fewer companies that are in a position to grow that industry or to buy out those companies as the entrepreneurs retire.

11:55 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Council of Chief Executives

David Stewart-Patterson

I would have to agree on the broad thrust of that. As I say, if you don't get the investment environment right it doesn't matter whether you're a small business person in a small community or an executive in a multinational that's based somewhere else. You make decisions about where can we make money in our business.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Are we doing enough right now?

11:55 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Council of Chief Executives

David Stewart-Patterson

In what Jay is talking about, it's clear that to date we've seen strong investment by manufacturers. They're saying, “We're doing our best to grow our businesses.” But if we look at the longer-term future, how are we going to handle a situation where the global economy is not as healthy as it has been for the past decade?

We've been enjoying a long period of very strong growth globally. That has helped Canadians cope with a lot of factors that might otherwise be more difficult. So, looking forward, we do have to look at both the short term and the longer term in terms of what makes Canadian communities places where people want to grow business. I think that applies to large businesses and small businesses alike.

In the longer term, it's not just about taxes. I think the human resource side is very, very important. As Garth said, where will the next generation of entrepreneurs come from? Are we growing those?

If I can just pick up on something else Jay said, it is true that countries compete for investment, but it's also true that communities compete, and every community has unique aspects. That's why I think it's not just a matter of trying to impose top-down policy. We need to talk about how to empower communities to foster that entrepreneurial energy and to offer whatever unique factors they have to attract businesses in any sector.

11:55 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Garth Whyte

There are two answers.

First, don't do anything to make it worse. If I were minister, I wouldn't put policies in place to make it worse. I know that sounds funny, but we do. So the first thing we should work at is, how do we alleviate the regulatory burden, not add to it? I don't know if there's a willingness, but that's easily done, and I think that would help all of us, small or large. That's the first thing.

But the second point I want to put in place is that I agree with the investment side of it. But it reminds me of Bill. Bill is an entrepreneur who has 100 employees. He has been going to China for 15 years. He operates out of New Brunswick. He has a high-tech communications firm and he won the lottery: a major international firm said, “We're going to buy your firm for millions of dollars.” Bill was ready to sell, and he said, “What are you going to do with this?” “Well, we just want your product and your markets. We're going to do it from the States, not from New Brunswick.” Bill said, “It's not for sale.”

The investment was there and it is a global market, but what about the local market? What about half the GDP? What about total employment?

You need two strategies--and this issue is about Bill. Seventy percent want to sell their firm in the next 10 years and 40% in five years. Two million jobs are in play. You can create a new business—it takes a lot of effort—or you can continue growing one that's in existence. Eighty percent of these people do not have a succession plan.

I know the government was looking at rollover provisions. These people want to pass on their firm. We have to look at things like that to allow Bill to pass it on to either his employees or to find people who want to buy these firms. If I were industry minister, this is a strategy where we'd have to bring everyone together to figure out how to do this. It's not just a government strategy; it's educating Bill.

He'll be happy I'm telling this, but anyway....

It's getting the investment community together. It's getting groups such as the CFIB together, and the rest of us. It's not just a shortage-of-labour issue that we're facing, it's a shortage of entrepreneurs.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Merci, monsieur Crête.

We have Mr. Carrie, for six minutes.