Evidence of meeting #44 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was market.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lawson Hunter  Executive Vice-President and Chief Corporate Officer, Bell Canada
Denis Henry  Vice-President , Regulatory Affairs, Bell Aliant Regional Communications
Janet Yale  Executive Vice-President, Corporate Affairs, TELUS Communications

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

We'll call this 44th meeting of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology to order. The orders we are studying today are pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), continuing our study on the deregulation of the telecommunications sector.

We have two hours, separated into one hour each. For the first hour we have Bell Canada and Bell Aliant Regional Communications. The first witness we have is Mr. Lawson Hunter, executive vice-president and chief corporate officer with Bell Canada. Second, we have Mr. Denis Henry, vice-president, regulatory affairs, with Bell Aliant Regional Communications.

Gentlemen, you have opening statements of up to five minutes, and then we'll go directly to questions from members.

Mr. Hunter, we'll start with you. Welcome to the committee.

3:30 p.m.

Lawson Hunter Executive Vice-President and Chief Corporate Officer, Bell Canada

Thank you, Mr. Rajotte.

Mr. Chair, Bell Canada believes that Minister Bernier’s framework for retail forbearance in local telephone markets is both correct and long overdue. The minister has evidence before him that Canada has fallen behind the rest of the world in a crucial sector of the economy. He has the support of consumers—your constituents, our customers—the very people who should be benefiting from competition today, but are not. He has the support of boards of trade, chambers of commerce, labour groups, and businesses large and small from coast to coast.

Under the minister’s proposal, Canadians will finally start to benefit from vigorous competition. Bell is already preparing for the day when the draft order in council is in effect. We are preparing new and innovative offers for consumers that will provide better value, offers that we cannot now make but that our competitors can, promotions tailored to the different needs of customers—people who are moving, trying out new services, or simply upgrading existing ones—and bundles that allow consumers to realize the true value of multiple services.

Consumers want these now. Yet you have not heard the consumer's voice among your many witnesses, just the complaints of competitors, particularly wholesale competitors, whose very existence depends on the government. Of the 12 witnesses you have heard to date, nine were either competitors or their representatives. The only independent experts you have heard from are CRTC vice-chair, Richard French; Commissioner of Competition, Sheridan Scott; and Hank Intven, representing the Telecommunications Policy Review Panel.They all substantially supported the minister’s proposals. I'll paraphrase the Who, and maybe I'm showing my age, but don't get fooled again.

When I last appeared, I cited a 2005 Decima consumer survey commissioned by Bell, Telus, and the Public Interest Advocacy Centre, each of which reviewed and approved the questions. At that time it showed that 89% of Canadian consumers believed that the same rules should apply to telephone companies and cable companies. That belief in level playing fields and open competition has never wavered in survey after survey.

Later efforts to alarm Canadians about regulatory change by those who claim to speak on the consumers' behalf have not weakened consumers’ resolve. Quite the contrary, their resolve has strengthened, as we found when we commissioned an Ipsos Reid study in early January to do a comprehensive survey of consumers. Now, 93% of consumers believe that federal policies should treat all telecom competitors the same; 77% believe the consumer, not government regulators, should determine what price to pay for local telephone services; 79% believe that telephone companies should be able to offer promotions; and 85% believe that telephone companies should be able to immediately compete to win back their business. These numbers are very consistent right across the country.

As the TPR Panel noted, for too long telecom policy and regulation has been shaped by a misconceived need to protect competitors. Cable companies need no protection. They are some of the largest and most successful companies in Canada, possessing ubiquitous networks, multiple product offerings, and a well-established base of subscribers.

It has been a year since the Telecom Policy Review Panel report called for an urgent need to phase out regulation of retail services over a 12- to 18-month period. Twelve months have passed, and there has been no forbearance yet. None. Yet over the same period, the four largest cable companies have seen their combined market capitalization grow by $14.4 billion. That is an increase of 61%. What you have witnessed is a massive wealth transfer, much of it from consumers, to cable owners. Why? Because consumers have not yet seen the financial rewards they expect from vigorous competition.

Mr. Chair, the TPR Panel concluded a year ago that Canada was falling behind the times in the telecommunications industry. The TPR Panel’s message was clear, and I quote: “The urgency for reform…and the time constraints of the legislative process” necessitate taking steps “under the existing statutory framework, in advance of legislative amendments, in order to begin the reform process at an earlier stage”.

In acting decisively, the minister is moving neither too fast nor too far. In our view, he is moving too slowly, and we think consumers agree.

As Mr. French told you last week, the minister is well within his authority, and he has proposed a proper economic test, one supported by the Competition Bureau and the panel. He has decided to take action and is exercising the powers given to him within the Telecommunications Act.

David Lloyd George, a great parliamentarian, once said, “Don't be afraid to take a big step if one is indicated. You can't cross a chasm in two small jumps.” That is the kind of leadership that will ensure consumers finally enjoy the full benefits of head-to-head competition for their businesses.

Thank you very much.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Hunter.

We'll now go to Mr. Henry for an opening statement.

3:35 p.m.

Denis Henry Vice-President , Regulatory Affairs, Bell Aliant Regional Communications

Thank you. It is an honour to be here, Mr. Chair, and members of the committee.

Bell Aliant Regional Communications is the successor to the companies that offered telephone service in the four Atlantic provinces for many years. As of July last year, we acquired the regional operations of Bell Canada in Ontario and Quebec. As a result, today we operate a rather vast geography spanning six provinces.

Our serving territory includes some of the most rural and remote areas in Canada. At the same time, it includes some of the most intensely competitive telecommunications markets in Canada. In fact, competition from cable telephony was pioneered in Nova Scotia eight years ago, when cable operator EastLink entered the market. The CRTC itself has acknowledged the intense competitive rivalry in various parts of our region. As EastLink proclaims on its own website, the 902 area code is the most competitive telephone exchange in North America.

Customers may be forgiven for wondering why on earth, after eight years of competition, they are not offered the same types of bundled service offerings from us as they are from our competitors; or why they cannot be offered the same types of promotions from us as they are from our competitors; or why we cannot even offer to waive service charges when they are considering switching their service to us; or why we in fact cannot even contact them, not only about local telephone service but about any service, for three months after they move their local service to a competitor.

Customers do not comprehend these rules. In fact, most people I talk to have trouble taking me seriously when I explain that such rules persist in this marketplace. Yet persist they do.

Mr. Chair, almost three years ago we asked the CRTC to remove retail price regulation in certain parts of the Atlantic region, most notably Halifax. Some two years later the request was denied in the very forbearance decision at issue here, despite the fact that we had lost 35% of our wire lines in the Halifax market at the end of 2005. Atlantic Canadians can be again forgiven for perceiving a grave injustice from a regulatory regime that produces such an outcome.

It is why, in our comments on the proposed order, we have asked the government to right this wrong by granting forbearance in Halifax. At the very least, Halifax must be added to the list of cities to be processed on a priority basis. It would indeed be ironic if the Atlantic region, with the most competitive market in the country, were to be unrepresented on this list.

With all due respect to the CRTC, in our view, it's lost sight of the purpose of regulation, and that should be to protect consumers from potentially high prices in areas where they have little or no choice. Instead, as the TPR Panel confirmed, the CRTC has misplaced its efforts on attempting to shield competitors from market forces with rules that have long ago been abandoned or never implemented in other countries. Ironically, most of the countries with far less regulation have far less competitive infrastructure than Canada.

It is for all these reasons that we are so supportive of the leadership demonstrated by the minister’s proposed changes to the CRTC’s forbearance decision.

Many of those who oppose this change, typically our well-established and well-funded competitors, have attempted to scare the public by conjuring up images of dire consequences flowing from what they call “deregulation”. Let us be clear, Mr. Chair. What is being proposed in the order is not deregulation—far from it. Remember what the proposed changes will do.

In areas where the competition test is not met, likely in the more rural areas, there will continue to be full retail regulation by the CRTC, including regulation of prices and quality of service. But even in areas where the competition test is met and forbearance is granted, a retail price ceiling will remain for all residential customers. I ask you, how many competitive industries have that?.

Furthermore, the CRTC will continue to regulate essential wholesale services and interconnection, thereby ensuring that competition will not be inhibited. They'll continue to impose social regulation to ensure that things like 911 and services for the disabled continue to be provided.

I would thus ask you to consider this. Does this reality coincide with the image of widespread deregulation that our competitors would have you believe will result from the proposed order? I think we can all agree that it does not.

Is it reform? Yes, it is reform, and it's long overdue regulatory reform. It's reform that is in keeping with rules adopted by Canada’s major trading partners, it is in keeping with the types of reforms recommended by the TPR Panel almost a year ago, and it is in keeping with what Canadian consumers and businesses want and deserve.

Canada cannot afford to delay regulatory reform when other nations are already ahead and moving forward. As Ofcom, the U.K. regulator, recently found when it removed retail price controls, “regulation, if overbearing, can have adverse effects on the development of competition, service innovation and long term investment”.

As well, we should not forget the link between productivity and regulation. In a study released late last year, the OECD found that lower productivity results for those countries with more restrictive marketplace frameworks.

For all these reasons, Mr. Chair, we believe Canada should embrace regulatory reform in this critical sector of our economy. We can take an important step in this direction by implementing the types of changes embodied in the proposed order.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and members of the committee.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Henry.

We'll now go to questions from members.

We'll start with Mr. McTeague, for six minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Mr. Chair, thank you.

In light of Mr. Hunter's earlier comments, perhaps I could assure him and everyone else that our clerk is doing the very best he can to make sure that all parties have an opportunity to appear before the committee. It was really a question of first-come, first-served.

Mr. Hunter, I'm a little taken aback by your comments but not surprised. I know that PIAC was here, and you know they were here, and they were not supportive then of the initial decision. The Union des consommateurs did not support the position of the government as well, and I'm sure there are other consumer groups that we will probably be hearing from in the days to come.

But I am taken aback most by your comments with respect to consumers. There's a poll that you and Mr. Carrie and the government keep citing, a poll that was, I understand, commissioned by you. This is the most recent Ipsos Reid poll, from which you cited the numbers of 93% and 77%—

This is the Ipsos Reid poll that your company commissioned.

3:40 p.m.

Executive Vice-President and Chief Corporate Officer, Bell Canada

Lawson Hunter

The Ipsos Reid one in January, we commissioned. The one I mentioned from 2005, that was done with PIAC, with Telus, with us, and the results are very, very consistent.

PIAC obviously didn't like the results, so they decided to do another one.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Mr. Hunter, why aren't you telling this committee that in the first place, the first question that was asked of those who participated was whether or not they were in fact aware of the impact on residential home service, and 84% were not even aware of this? Therefore you are predicating whatever number you have on the balance of 16%.

It's a little disingenuous to come before this committee and suggest that consumers support your position when in fact a very small number do. More importantly, it's predicated on a very small number.

How do you square that, Mr. Hunter?

3:40 p.m.

Executive Vice-President and Chief Corporate Officer, Bell Canada

Lawson Hunter

I square that very easily because of the methodology of polls. It isn't surprising to me, as I'm sure it isn't surprising to you, that in this unbelievably esoteric, convoluted, overbearing type of regulation that we face in telephony in this country, consumers aren't quite aware of it--

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

You say you have the support of consumers, Mr. Hunter, but—

3:45 p.m.

Executive Vice-President and Chief Corporate Officer, Bell Canada

Lawson Hunter

Can I answer, Mr. McTeague?

My answer is that I'm not surprised by that. And that is why in our questionnaire, which we did with Ipsos Reid, we provided enough detail in the question so that consumers could understand the question being asked of them.

As I said to you before—

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Are you prepared to accept, Mr. Hunter—

3:45 p.m.

Executive Vice-President and Chief Corporate Officer, Bell Canada

Lawson Hunter

--if you look at all the polls, including the one Ipsos Reid did in December, the results are very consistent.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

What's consistent, Mr. Hunter, is that you've not told us that a vast number of Canadians either didn't reply or weren't aware of the policy to begin with. It's rather disingenuous of you to come before this committee and suggest that on— based on 16%, perhaps 11% of Canadians actually support your position.

3:45 p.m.

Executive Vice-President and Chief Corporate Officer, Bell Canada

Lawson Hunter

It's more than PIAC represents.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Let me move on to another one, Mr. Hunter. You are a former director of the Competition Bureau. The CRTC made a number of comments. Obviously they weren't very happy about being unloaded or removed from the picture in this decision by the minister. I'm sure you'd probably feel the same way if suddenly the Competition Bureau were removed from an important decision that affected their area of jurisdiction.

Mr. Hank Intven was here on Monday. I'm wondering if you can tell me whether or not Mr. Intven had a hand in or worked with your company or was on contract with your company with respect to drafting the proposed legislation, the proposal that the industry minister came forward with on the order on forbearance.

3:45 p.m.

Executive Vice-President and Chief Corporate Officer, Bell Canada

Lawson Hunter

On the draft order in council? Absolutely not.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Thank you.

You suggested a little earlier as well that you were firmly of the view that this would be good for consumers in the long run. Mr. Intven came here yesterday and said that the TPR report should be done as a whole. He talked about it being an important document that required all aspects to be looked at. He was also distraught over the fact that many sections of this particular report were absent in the minister's direction, which you now clearly support.

Our position is that this has been cherry-picked to satisfy a certain constituency, namely Bell Canada and Telus, and obviously your supporters.

I'm wondering if you could tell us whether or not you believe it's important to maintain the entire integrity of the TPR report or if we can just get away on the skinny, as has been proposed by the minister and clearly by you.

3:45 p.m.

Executive Vice-President and Chief Corporate Officer, Bell Canada

Lawson Hunter

First of all, I completely disagree with your characterization of our position. We are the ones, as you may know, who have for a long time urged the government— including your government, I might add, which founded the TPR— to do a comprehensive study, not only of regulations but of the ICT sector.

By the way, let me just paraphrase something from the OECD study, which Mr. Henry cited. Productivity is a major issue in this country. The OECD study said that Canada, since 1995, because of over-regulation, has been losing 0.75% productivity gain every year

Imagine what that would mean for the productivity of this economy. We are over-regulated. The OECD and many other international bodies say the same thing: there is too much regulation.

But let me come back to your point about the overall study. On the economic regulatory side, I looked at the—

You asked the question, Mr. McTeague. Do you want an answer or not?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

I'm sorry, you're hearing things, Mr. Hunter. I didn't interrupt you.

3:45 p.m.

Executive Vice-President and Chief Corporate Officer, Bell Canada

Lawson Hunter

You were not listening.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

I was asking the chair how much time we have left.

3:45 p.m.

Executive Vice-President and Chief Corporate Officer, Bell Canada

Lawson Hunter

I was going to say that of the 30 recommendations in chapter 3, 27 of them, to some degree, are being addressed by what the minister—

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

We don't want a re-monopolization of the industry, Mr. Hunter. Your company has benefited more uniquely than any other company, perhaps in Canada's history, with respect to regulation. We don't want a backslide to the days of monopolization. This is a program to do that.

I can tell you, Mr. Hunter, consumers are not impressed by the statement you made at the outset, which is absolutely false.

3:45 p.m.

Executive Vice-President and Chief Corporate Officer, Bell Canada

Lawson Hunter

Could I answer one other part of it?

In my view, it would be very good for this committee to turn its attention to the rest of the report, including the ICT and broadband portions of the report. In keeping with what the panel recommended, the minister is making the changes he can within the current legislative framework. But the legislative framework still needs to be fixed.

We're doing what we can today. We need to move on after this and change the whole framework. You should be looking at the ICT sector, but that's obviously not what the minister can do in the face of the decision from the CRTC.