Industry Committee on March 21st, 2007

[Phyllis Gordon]

Yes. It's also an economic impact on people with disabilities, both because of their generally lower income, but also a problem that has to be solved is the availability of equipment that is specially designed for different disabilities that may cost more. We have to factor into this thing an examination of how the telecommunications industry or the government is going to offer different equipment.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I couldn't help think as you were making your presentations that it seems counterintuitive in some ways that people who are economically disadvantaged would pay higher costs for basic services than those who are better off. Then I was thinking about the banking system, and the fact that the people who cannot afford to maintain a basic bank account at a chartered bank often end up paying more for financial services through Money Mart and others. It's not unique; telco is not the only area where this is possible and in fact quite likely.

I'd like to expand more, Ms. Léger, on your concerns relative to the Competition Bureau. One of the TPRP recommendations was that a regulatory agency be set up and established that has the capacity in terms of understanding of telco, and not the CRTC necessarily, and not the Competition Bureau, but something new. I just want to be clear on this. Your concern is that the Competition Bureau will be less responsive, less knowledgeable, and potentially less sensitive to the people you work with than the CRTC?

[Sophie Léger]

Well, our main desire is to have a tribunal. In our mind, a tribunal is independent from the old CRTC and the current CRTC and Competition Bureau. We are hoping for a very independent, knowledgeable tribunal that will have the power to analyze and quickly take action if there is an abuse case by a dominant player.

Right now we face an industry with a dominant duopoly. Wherever we are, there are really only two choices in Canada: Telus and Shaw out west, Bell and Vidéotron out east, and then you have Cogeco somewhere. There's always a duopoly that owns 90% of the market and is very strong.

You will need a tribunal that will really understand the market in depth, and will have the power to quickly act upon requests. Right now there is also the problem of the delay when we make requests. Our hope is to have that type of tribunal in the future.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay, thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Van Kesteren for five minutes.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, everyone, for coming.

Ms. MacDonald, I like your card. It's a little fish being eaten by a bigger fish that is being eaten by a whole bunch of fish. What does that mean?

[Patricia MacDonald]

What it means is that when you're dealing with a large player that can take advantage of low-income consumers, poor people, the poor people can get together and eat the fish.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Okay. Good. I like that.

I hope you don't think I'm unkind, because I'm really not an unkind person, but I'm going to ask all of you some pointed questions.

Who pays you?

I'll start with you, Ms. MacDonald. Who pays you?

[Patricia MacDonald]

Who pays me to come here for this committee meeting?

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

No. Who pays the British Columbia Public Interest Advocacy Centre?

[Patricia MacDonald]

Are you familiar with law foundations?

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Yes.

[Patricia MacDonald]

Okay. Our primary core funding comes from the Law Foundation of B.C., which funds hundreds of organizations across B.C. Another part of our funding comes from participating in hearings for utility, electricity, and telephone matters. We've done very little telephone in the last number of years. Finally, we do get some independent grants--very rarely.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

So you see if somebody has a case and then it's handed over to lawyers who challenge it in court. Is that correct?

[Patricia MacDonald]

Right. We regularly appear in front of regulatory bodies, most often the B.C. Utilities Commission. If there's a case we want to take on, it has to meet our mandate; it has to be in the public interest. We're focusing on poverty rights and disability rights at the moment.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Ms. Gordon, the same thing.

[Phyllis Gordon]

I come from the province that still believes in legal aid. Legal Aid Ontario funds 79 legal clinics, and the ARCH Disability Law Centre is one of the specialty clinics. So 90% to 95% of our budget comes from legal aid. We have a small amount from the City of Toronto that pays half a support person. We collect small amounts. We've had some money from costs at the CRTC, but that goes into supplementing our regulatory work.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

I'm not picking on anybody in particular.

Ms. Léger, is it basically the same thing?

[Sophie Léger]

Well, the coalition is all the members who do it. In addition to the time we invest outside our daily managing of the businesses, it's the companies that share the costs we incur.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Again, I'm not being unkind, but I want to know why you're qualified in suggesting that this is a poor direction for the minister to go. What qualifies you to make that statement?

[Sophie Léger]

I can start.

All the members I represent have been in this industry for ten years. We're dealing with over 200,000 end-users in the Internet business. The majority of us are owners of the companies. We want to continue offering quality service to our current and future end-users. So it's our passion for the industry. It's a reflection of what we want to offer our customers.

Right now we know we are losing customers. They don't know where they are going. They're facing penalty charges. When we see our customers going through this and all the personal hiccups of managing business, it is very frustrating.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

You are aware that in 1997, when deregulation took place, the prices plummeted. You don't think that we're going to see the same thing happening when we deregulate? You don't think so?

[Sophie Léger]

No, because right now we obviously see the cost and the margins generated with the services, and it is obvious that the incumbents do not generate any profit at the current retail prices.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you.

I have another question. I think I want to direct this to Ms. Gordon.

You were concerned about the fact that by the year 2041, 23% of our citizens will be over 65. Doesn't that stand to reason that in the other direction, since we're going to have more retired people, more people on disability, and more people who have special needs, that services would improve?

Usually when I follow free markets, I find that as the need increases and expand—

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay. We'll get Ms. Gordon to respond.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Am I running out of time?