Evidence of meeting #36 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nrc.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Independent
André Arthur Independent Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
And he doesn't want to part with his pension plan.
Vice-President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
I would say that's a fair statement for anybody in the government. No one anywhere wants to part with a pension plan.
Independent
André Arthur Independent Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Mr. Coulombe, I have a question for you and I'm not asking you in your capacity of President or head of the NRC. Rather, I'm appealing to you as a wise observer of the world of science in Canada. If a young, 19-year-old Albert Einstein, or better yet, a young Richard Feynman, is spending his weekend washing cars in a Toronto suburb, then who is going to discover him? Who is going to recruit him? Which member of Canada's scientific community is going to notice that we need to invest in this individual?
President, National Research Council Canada
Sir, that is not a question that I can answer. However, I can tell you that every year, the NRC welcomes between 1,200 and 1,500 graduate, doctoral or post-doctoral students. They come to work for the NRC because of the stimulating environment it offers them in which to carry out their research.
Not only do we welcome young researchers, we also go out and recruit established foreign researchers and bring them to Canada. The only criterion is that they must be willing to work at the NRC. Otherwise, they stay where they are.
Independent
André Arthur Independent Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
I expected that answer from the head of the NRC. That is why I specifically put my question to you, as an observer of the scientific community, not just as the head of the NRC. I take it you do not want to answer my question.
President, National Research Council Canada
If you are looking for a more general answer, I would say that through the Canadian government's research chair initiative which has been under way for a number of years, our Canadian universities have been able to recruit Canadians who had been working abroad and who were sufficiently drawn by the Canada Research Chairs Program to leave their job abroad and return to Canada. Furthermore, we have been able to recruit foreigners, that is non-Canadian researchers who saw in this program an opportunity to carry out more stimulating and interesting research work than they were doing in their own country.
Last year, I went to Germany. My colleague at the Max-Planck Institute expressed to me his disappointment at having lost some German researchers who had decided to immigrate to Canada to take advantage of the Canada Research Chairs Program. These were young researchers, generally between 35 and 45 years of age.
Independent
André Arthur Independent Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Does the NRC recruit the best of the best or persons who have the most popular personal qualifications? I mentioned two names earlier. If a young Albert Einstein or a young Richard Feynman is washing cars on weekends in Toronto, who is going to discover him? Are the best people necessarily the ones who are the most adept at selling themselves?
President, National Research Council Canada
The NRC recruits the best people, as do Canadian universities and companies, the people who can help us meet our goals. As for a Mr. Feynman who might be washing cars on the weekend, the only chance he would have of being discovered is if he ultimately washed a car belonging to someone who realized that he was in the presence of a great thinker, or perhaps a Nobel Prize laureate. Otherwise, it comes down to fate.
President, National Research Council Canada
Yes, fate, under the circumstances that you have described to me.
Independent
André Arthur Independent Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
You rely on universities to consistently recruit the best people. However, I know of some universities that do not make any effort in that regard. Come to Québec and see for yourself.
Conservative
NDP
Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON
Thank you.
I want to take a different approach. I want to compliment the skill, the intelligence, and the results of many of the scientists in Canada who have created such wonderful technology, such as in our space industry.
I noted, Mr. Corbett, that you were pleased the sale of MacDonald Dettwiler and Associates did not succeed. When you think of the technology that has been created, the Radarsat-2 and even going back several years to the Canadarm and the subsequent robotics that have come out of that company, these are scientific accomplishments that I think Canada should be justifiably proud of.
One thing that struck us all during the hearings around the MDA sale was the company's statement that unless there was investment in the space industry, they felt they needed to sell to an American firm. Others have echoed the need for investment in the space industry. This strikes me as a similar situation that's being raised about the lack of funding for scientific research.
I'd like to put this in a more positive framework. Mr. Corbett, you talk about the need for a robust national innovation system. What would such a national innovation system require? What does it take to focus not on what we don't have but what we need, and to build on the expertise that's already been so successful?
Dr. Coulombe, I'd like you to answer that as well.
Vice-President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
From our point of view, the whole idea of innovation has shifted to a short-term concept from a long-term one. For example, we see innovation as generating jobs, economic wealth. But some of the greatest discoveries anywhere have been directed at innovation over a longer term, beyond the mandates of governments.
At Agriculture Canada, the discovery of certain types of grains have brought billions and billions of dollars to this country, but that wouldn't be classed as innovation today, because it took 30 or 40 years to deliver. When we talk innovation, we need to look not only at the short term but also at the long term.
President, National Research Council Canada
Innovation takes time. Innovation is a balance between long-term research activities, technology development, technology maturation, and technology implementation primarily through the private sector. The private sector transforms innovation into products and therefore into dollars, jobs, and better positioning within a marketplace.
In Canada today, we do quite a bit of knowledge development. We rank number one within the G8 countries in supporting higher education. Supporting higher education is supporting long-term research activities. We rank number one in G8 and number two in the OECD. We're demonstrating that Canada is committed to supporting knowledge development and training of HQP. We do that, and we are not bad at all in transforming innovation into products.
If we look at the statistics in Canada, Canadian industry is investing less in R and D than our competitors are. In OECD countries, the proportion of R and D funding coming from industries ranges between 65% and 68%. In Canada it's more like 55%. So already we have a discrepancy compared with the other countries. This is something that we as a country must try to correct. This is something we are partially doing through IRAP. We are supporting SMEs. Larger companies also do this for tax credits or tax incentives.
NDP
Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON
Dr. Coulombe, I understand there are 20 research organizations that are part of your organization. I'm wondering if you can tell us which ones get the lion's share of the research dollars that we spend as a country. I'm sure they're not all funded equally. Which ones do we spend most of our money on?
President, National Research Council Canada
Are you speaking of our own allocation, or globally with respect to various industry sectors?
President, National Research Council Canada
At the NRC, for example, our largest institute works on aerospace and aeronautics. It's quite interesting. We provide 50% of their funding from our A-base, but they collect 50% and are covering their expenses through collaboration with industry. In my view, this is a good reflection of the connection that our R and D programs in aerospace and aeronautics have with industry needs. Industry is willing to pay to do collaborative research with us. That's a nice example. The aerospace sector is intensive in Canada.
President, National Research Council Canada
The construction industry is another example. The NRC is the research institute for the construction industry in Canada. The construction industries are not very high R and D spenders—they don't spend a lot.
Liberal
Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you for joining us this afternoon.
Mr. Coulombe, I am trying to gain a better understanding of the relationship that exists between the NRC and the private sector. You mentioned a company by the name of IMRIS. This is the first time that I've heard the name. To what extent is this company involved in research? Do you decide to do some research on imaging and then identify companies that seem promising, or do you get these companies involved from the get-go? Do they provide you with funding to do the work and then subsequently, you turn your research findings over to them? How does this process work?
President, National Research Council Canada
Sir, you gave examples of some of the research activities that we carry out. Generally speaking, the NRC's research programs are developed further to an analysis of industry requirements. We consult with industry officials and with our university colleagues with a view to forging partnerships. Once we have identified the major R&D problems that an industry is facing, we develop research programs with the goal of serving industry and providing technology transfers.
The company that both you and I mentioned, IMRIS, evolved from technology developed by the NRC after it observed that in hospital operating rooms, there was no access to nuclear magnetic resonance imaging during surgical procedures, but only two or three days after the fact. We developed a technology that made this possible and we created a company to market the technology. We were able to secure venture capital, and some of our people went to work for this new company. IMRIS is making gains and is continuing to interact with us so as to improve the quality of the product it is marketing to hospitals in North America. IMRIS has become one of our partners, but we recognize that it also forged partnerships with other parties.
