In the case of debit, we actually did have some success with MasterCard. They had a model similar to what Jeff had described with Visa. In that case we were able, with others I'm sure, to convince them that a more competitive model was appropriate given their current situation. They did listen. I'll give them credit for that.
In the case of credit, I think the challenge, at least with their premium cards, has been trying to compete against American Express, which has historically had a higher-end customer, those who charge more. The worst thing that could happen in the system today would be if they weren't able to compete against American Express for those higher-end customers, if the interchange rate was too low and banks decided to start issuing American Express cards, because those are much more expensive than Visa and MasterCard. Even the premium Visa and MasterCards are less expensive than Amex is today.