Okay. Well, there are some arguments that the world is changing in terms of buying stuff over the Internet and things that you can't do with a debit card, but that's another argument they're using.
Mr. Conacher, you've talked about Visa and MasterCard as individuals. There aren't a lot of them left, I don't think, but there are the Canadian Tires of the world, and the Bays, those that have their own credit card systems. They tend to have really high interest rates. People treat them as a credit card, but they're specific to their stores. Do you include those in the issue? Do you think we should be seeing them at this table alongside the other credit card issuers that we've seen?