Evidence of meeting #15 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was earth.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Thank you very much. It's very impressive.
Perhaps one day you will also be members of Parliament, sitting around this table, as Mr. Garneau is.
Before I open the floor to members of the committee, I want to ask you one question: how many kilometres above the Earth does the international space station orbit?
Astronaut, Canadian Space Agency
It's typically 350 kilometres. As you can imagine, there's a vacuum in space, but it is a very rarified environment up there. There is some drag that affects the station and it slowly creeps down over time. Every once in a while, we need to boost the station back up. The usual target is 350 kilometres.
Let me segue and tell you that I think, in addition to being scientific and technical role models, Canadian astronauts should be role models for physical fitness. About 25% of young Canadians are overweight or obese. We had a challenge called “get fit for space” associated with this expedition. We encouraged young Canadians and senior Canadians to walk, run, or cycle the 350 kilometres to the space station over that six-month period of time. We had 40,000 people participate. It was gratifying.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Thank you very much. That's a good initiative to know about.
Do members of the committee have questions for our guests?
Go ahead, Mr. Garneau.
Liberal
Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
I'll make a few quick comments and maybe ask a few questions.
I feel like a 10-year-old boy. I remember back in 1969 when Apollo 11 went up. Perhaps I'm dating myself a little, but I'm thrilled. It's great to have you here. As well, I want to assure you that your loss of Mr. Garneau is definitely our gain. We're very pleased to have him.
One of the other comments I want to make is this. It was nice to hear about the cooperation that goes on. When I look at Canada, I see a lot of different nations coming to one place. Basically, the best of the world is concentrated here. What happens up in space is basically a projection of what happens in Canada. It was nice to hear about the cooperation and what was going on.
You talked about the numerous types of projects that are commonly funded or take place. How do the projects that are funded through the Canadian Space Agency through the grants and contribution programs align with the government's science and technology strategy? I'm looking for some type of an alignment that would explain it to people. Not everybody sees the value in this. Perhaps you can highlight that alignment.
President, Canadian Space Agency
One of the driving features of everything we do at the Canadian Space Agency is doing is to try to align it with the science and technology strategy.
If you look at all the exploration work we're involved in with respect to robotics, we are the ones who are putting the station together, as Koichi said, but it's the spinoff from that, and the excitement from it, that make us a player at the table internationally. I think that contributes to nation building. It inspires the next generation to go into science and technology, so in addition to the role we play on the international space station, we also have a major part in contributing to the next generation.
That's just on the robotics side. If you go to the utilization of the space station, we are working in five or six different areas within science, so we're aligned with the other government departments that are involved. For example, they mentioned the project at York University, which is a neurological project. In some cases these projects have support from Health Canada. Maybe there is support from Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, as you heard about with the willow trees that are being grown there to try to understand the growth of reaction wood. We have a myriad of important experiments.
In Health Canada there are areas that are identified as important, areas where we can make a contribution. Those areas are the cardiovascular system, the neurological system, and the immune system. Across 100 shuttle flights, I think there have been 70 flights that had cancer experiments on them, and that's because cells interact differently once they're in zero gravity.
The answer is that we try to align everything so that it meets criteria that maps into the S and T strategy.
Astronaut, Canadian Space Agency
The University of Calgary and MDA, the company that manufactured all the Canadian robotics on the space station, have teamed up with the faculty of medicine there and created something called neuroArm. NeuroArm is a neurosurgical robotic tool--not experimental, but operational--that uses the control algorithms and the vision system from the Canadarm to perform surgery on human brains. The reason they do that is that a robot can hold a precise tool at a precise location in the brain a lot better than even the steadiest neurosurgeon's hand, so I think medicine has probably benefited the most from our space investment.
President, Canadian Space Agency
The thing that needs to be worked on, just to be frank, is that the CSA has about one-third of the total budget that's spent on space in Canada. DND has almost one-third, and the other third is split between Environment Canada, NRCan, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. It's still not enough money--I'll be honest about that--compared to other agencies, but it's a tribute to the leadership that was at the CSA before that for the amount of money we have, we have done relatively well.
One thing we need to improve is the alignment between those agencies. According to the Canadian Space Agency Act, that rests with the Canadian Space Agency. Since I came on board as president, this has been something I've worked really hard on: getting the other government departments to have their wheels all spinning in the same direction so as to make the Canadian space program even more vibrant.
What we need is a better and more efficient use of the total amount of funds so that we do a better mapping of the S and T strategy.
Liberal
Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
Thank you. It's important to make that connection because people often don't see the connection that happens on a day-to-day basis. They just see people up in space, floating around and having a good time, but work is actually being done, and it's good to make that connection for the average person out there.
I'm going to go back to that nine-year-old in 1969 and I'm going to ask you a question and I'm not sure it relates to the government strategy. But you have experience in space, you've been up there, and there is talk of a manned mission to Mars. Do you have any thoughts to share on what some of the challenges could be that will face us as we prepare for that and when do you see that happening and how do you see that working out?
Astronaut, Canadian Space Agency
I'm guessing I'm the same age as you, because I can remember that day in 1969 when I watched Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin walk on the moon.
It's very true that the Apollo astronauts inspired me in the way my education path and my career have gone. Back in 1969 Canada didn't have an astronaut program, but that interest in space was a dream that rested in the back of my brain, so one day when Canada was ready to have an astronaut program, because of my interest and capabilities in science and technology, I was a reasonable candidate to pursue.
We had three strategic objectives with this first Canadian expedition. One was exploration, the second was innovation, and the third was education. In the same way that the Apollo astronauts inspired me when I was young, we want to be an inspiration to the next generation of Canadians.
Canada is a country that was founded to a large extent on exploration by La Vérendrye, Champlain, Sir Alexander Mackenzie, Simon Fraser, and David Thompson. Our country has benefited from their work. Today all the geological frontiers have been explored. The new frontiers are science, technology, medicine, and space.
We want to encourage young Canadians to dream dreams but also to realize that dreams don't come true by wishing on a star. Dreams come true by passion, devotion, support from family members, and education. Education equalizes the playing field and gives us all those opportunities. I have four university degrees. They're required if I'm going to pursue my dream.
I mentioned the “get fit for space” program. We had several other educational projects that didn't just inform young people about space science and the need to pursue education; they engaged them as well.
Hopefully that's the answer to your question.
President, Canadian Space Agency
Let me show you where exploration is; I think that's an important point to get across, especially to this committee.
Five countries are partners in the international space station. There are 14, maybe 15, countries that have actually produced a major piece that has gone up and been assembled on the international space station, and there are 80 countries that use the data. This aspect of international cooperation on the most complex technical project ever is perhaps the best thing we are doing. We can show the youth of today that it's possible, when you work together, to do something that is technically quite phenomenal.
In terms of exploration, these countries have gotten together and strategized about where we should go and what we should do next. They have written a document; Canada played a lead role in writing this document, as did the other four major partners, about what we should do next. Should we go to the moon, should we visit asteroids, should we go to Mars, should we make use of the Lagrangian points? These are the stationary points between the Earth and the moon that are very good places to put astronomical equipment. That strategy has been written and agreed to.
China has already made their strategy. About 10 years ago they said that they would, first, get into space; second, put a human into space; third, put two humans into space; fourth, have a space station up there. They said they would do all that in 10 years. I think you would probably agree that if we didn't laugh at them, we smiled gently, because we did not believe that was possible.
Well, they have executed that plan exactly as they planned to do. Their space station isn't a space station like this one here--it's simply two different vehicles put together, and it is a somewhat different environment--but their future plans have them going to the moon and going to Mars. Russia has a similar strategy. The question is, what are the Americans going to do?
The Americans just had the White House commission that Obama set up, chaired by Norm Augustine. Each of the partners went down and testified. I represented Canada and testified there.
They were very interested in knowing the efficiencies that would be required to keep the partnership that's on the international space station and then head out to the other parts of the solar system. They wanted to know what Canada would do. This was all discussion. It was not decision, but discussion. What would Canada do?
The approach we took was that if the US decides to go to the moon, this is what we will do. If the US decides to go to Mars, this is what we will do. This is because we are a small player and can't direct the show, if you like.
I think that was a very diplomatic approach to take. The option that is coming forth with Obama is to perhaps not go to the moon. They are leaning away from going to the moon and they're deciding to go to asteroids and Lagrangian points as they go toward the planet Mars.
The information you have seen in the media recently about the Obama speech that was made down at the Kennedy Space Center in April is not correct. They basically said exploration is cancelled, etc. That was not true. What they did was to cancel the crew vehicle, because they had design issues with the crew vehicle. They cancelled the small rocket that was going to launch that small crew vehicle because there were design issues, and at this stage in the program they didn't want those design issues.
Given the fact that there were those design issues, the policy people around Obama said that if they go to Mars, they should do it with new technology. Space has always driven innovative technology to the next step, so they should do it with new technology. Obama's last budget froze all spending in the government and cut most discretionary funding, but he added $6 billion more to the NASA budget to go after those new technologies, the idea being to get them to Mars sooner.
That is the truth about what they are trying to do.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Thank you, Dr. MacLean. Thank you, Mr. Rota.
Go ahead, Mr. Cardin.
The floor is yours.
Bloc
Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC
Thank you, Mr. chair.
Good morning, gentlemen, and thank you for having welcomed us in your universe. It was extremely interesting. I know I frequently have my head in the clouds but I have not yet reached the moon. In any case, when I started writing down my questions, you were already on Mars.
Is it more of a challenge today, this dream of humanity since the beginning of time?Sometimes, the first explorers who came here got lost but, in the end, they always found something. There are things to be discovered. Is it more a challenge of pure exploration or is there some kind of necessity to go further, in the future?
Astronaut, European Space Agency
It is both, I believe.
First, there is of course the challenge of going further. I always say that a society that stops exploring is a society that stops progressing. If we want to progress as a society, we must try to go further. We do that with technology, with science, but it is more than that. It is a matter of nation-building, of inspiring youth, of educating. A program of exploration is also something that allows society to rise to another level. So, it is a challenge.
Secondly, I also believe that in some distant future--I do not know when-- some of our resources on Earth will not be sufficient anymore. Many other resources might be available on the moon, on asteroids, on Mars and perhaps in places yet to be discovered. We know that every time man discovers d new lands, new places, it gives us new things. It gave us things that were not expected or that were unknown. When Christopher Columbus tried to go around the world to find a new route to India, he discovered the something that radically changed our world, and I believe the same thing will happen if we continue exploring.
So, I believe it is a challenge but it will also become a necessity in the future. I agree with Steve about what we are currently doing in the US. Indeed, with our current technology, it would be very difficult to explore and harvest all the benefits of that exploration. We could perhaps consider that only as being a challenge. However, to really harvest all the benefits, I believe that we need new technologies and that we need to do things differently. I think that what President Obama has decided in the US is very important.
At the same time, Europe is also thinking about what it should do, what it could bring to this program of exploration. In Europe, they are aware that, first, space exploration is a matter of politics and of international cooperation and, second, if we do not continue to explore, the Chinese, the Russians and the Americans will do it. Many countries around the world will continue exploring.
One of the major concerns in Europe is to find a way to get everyone involved, everyone on Earth, not only the current partners which will probably continue exploring, but also the Chinese, the Indians, the Brazilians and even the Africans, who are all interested. The trick is making all those countries share a common vision, a vision of peace, a desire, as Steve mentioned, to achieve something together that will be an example for youth and for everyone on this planet. We have to find a way to build this program, and what role Europe can play in this process.
The current debate about this in Europe is very important, now that the European Union, with the new treaty signed last December, has its own role to play and its own competencies in space exploration. Even though we may not be as significant a partner, nor have as many leaders, or have the same means as the Americans or the Russians, I believe it is important for Europe--and for Canada too, I think--to contribute in sharing its values through programs of space exploration. You did that in Canada by affirming your values of diplomacy, your values of openness, your desire to get the best from all peoples. You also do that very well through space exploration. That is what Europe wants to do in the future.
Bloc
Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC
You said something important about exploitation, or rather exploration-- both words sound the same... You talked about answering some needs by going further to find new things. That is why international cooperation is required. Let us think about what happened in the past. I do not want to talk about philosophy of history but we may think of the wars fought because of our exploration and exploitation of resources on this planet. Of course, we should not to do that again, it should not become our objective. As a matter of fact, if it becomes our objective, it will mean that we feel we are beginning to lack resources. Considering the way we use the resources on Earth, our planet may start looking like a dried fruit a few decades from now. So, we would have to find resources elsewhere. That is why space exploration should be based on world cooperation. Let us not repeat elsewhere the wars of the past.
Many of the things you talked about have been done. Research has been carried out, things have been discovered and are being used today on Earth. One of the things you referred to is of special interest to me, your training program. You said that our population is more and more overweight, which has led you to set up a special training program. It is probably not something resembling the 5BX program developed for fighter pilots. Are those programs offered?
President, Canadian Space Agency
Let me answer this question. What you say about exploration is interesting. We could talk about this the whole day long. There are huge technical challenges. Inviting a country like China also raises significant challenges, one of them being to convince older world governments to do that at the same time. Also, as Frank stated, I believe it is very important to have an innovative vision of what should be done. Take the example of Russia which has been doing the same thing for 50 years. It is doing exactly the same thing today as in 1951. It is not an example of technology innovation.
All this deserves serious thinking. If we use the same technology as today, such as the shuttle and the Soyuz vehicles, we will only explore Mars. However, if we improve our technology, there will be benefits in many sectors. Over 20 years, in Canada, we have had a rate of return of 8 to 12% each year on our investment in exploration. I wanted to say that before answering your other question.
What I found interesting in the program developed by Bob--it must be said that Get fit for Space was his idea--is that most people who got involved were seniors, people 55 and over.
There is a link with what we did in the 60s with the Governor General Awards, bronze, silver and gold. However, we did not care who would be first or second. We only wanted to get people involved, not to promote competition through rankings. We wanted to ensure that all the seniors who wanted to participate would be able to do so. Even my 85-year old aunt was proud to tell me she finished her walk to the space station.
I believe we can do much in Canada in this field. it is something that is important to us.
Bloc
Bloc
Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC
It is from the TV show Tout le monde en parle. This is my killer question: did it cost $32 million to Guy Laliberté?
