Industry Committee on June 3rd, 2010

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Really? So you'll actually tender out there and get bids?

[Alan Johnston]

We don't tender. It's up to the companies to go out and basically market themselves to do this work on behalf of Measurement Canada. Bear in mind that we do not have mandatory inspection periods in place right now, so there's very limited demand for that. But if we get mandatory inspection periods, these companies would go out and engage these device owners or retailers, would offer their services to them. They may already be providing maintenance or repairs, and they could have this additional inspection function to allow them to provide a complete service—come in, recalibrate, repair, and certify a device all at one time.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

What evidence do you have that there's competition? You're suggesting that there are five of them in Saskatchewan. Are these companies bidding against each other not only for just Regina and Saskatoon but also for northern Saskatchewan?

[Alan Johnston]

I'll maybe ask Sonia—she has detailed plans—but the answer is yes, they do compete with each other.

I can't think of any complaints we've had where somebody felt they were being gouged. Of course there's a limited number of inspections—I want to be honest. But we haven't run into that problem in the past, and we certainly don't anticipate it in the future.

Sonia can give you some more details.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Yes, thank you.

[Sonia Roussy]

We have been tracking where they are located, through maps, for two reasons: to make sure they are moving to the remote locations—which has been happening—and also to see that we have a number of companies in each region, so we do get that competition. While we don't track what they charge—and we've just done a survey to find that out—we are seeing that we're getting a number of companies coming into the various regions.

We have not seen an indication of any monopolies being formed or anything.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Okay. Maybe we can have that tabled. That would be interesting. I think that's one of the things that keeps them honest.

If we're not tracking what they're charging, maybe we could find some of that information.

Do I have more time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Please be very brief.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I'll spend my time, then, to ask if we can get an answer—because they won't be able to answer this anyway—but perhaps from the researchers. I'd like to know approximately how much gasoline and other measurement we're able to determine has been lost to the consumer, from 1999 to the present time, and also the taxes paid on those materials? Could those be provided to the committee? It would be interesting.

The reason I'm going with that is if we get another chance my question would be related to the request for an additional $2 million, which we haven't gotten to yet, and the $1.7 million reallocated to Measurement Canada to make this happen.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Masse actually has three pieces of information that he'd like to solicit from you, if you could submit it to the clerk, one that was mentioned earlier, in another intervention, and the two right now. If you could review the transcript and provide that to the clerk as best as possible, that information would help us in our study of this bill.

We're now going to Mr. Van Kesteren.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you all for coming. You've certainly answered most of the questions.

I'm curious. The bill the government has introduced was something that your department felt was necessary, obviously. I have two questions I need to ask. Is there something we haven't asked you that really is a burning issue with Measurement Canada that was another catalyst, another reason for preparing this bill?

The second question would be how do we compare with the rest of the world? Were we lagging way behind? Was this something that was outdated? How do we compare to the U.K. or somewhere like that? Maybe you could comment on that.

[Alan Johnston]

I'll start by answering your second question first.

Yes, most industrialized countries, or most countries in the world, have a system whereby there are mandatory reinspection periods. Canada is unique in that sense. So, yes, we are lagging behind in that area.

Our fines are really low. Most countries have introduced much larger fines. The proposed fines would bring us in line with other jurisdictions. The U.S., for example, has mandatory inspection periods. Although in the U.S. it's a state responsibility, it's not a national responsibility. So, yes, this will modernize the Weights and Measures Act and the Electricity and Gas Inspection Act. I think it will give us the tools to do our job.

In terms of questions you didn't ask, I want to make it clear that we started this process way back in 2000 or 2001. We decided as an organization, obviously with the support of our department, that the way to go was to provide a strong audit oversight role and to look at providing services through the authorized service providers. This was not as a result of any particular media event or anything like that. The alternative was to ask the government for 300-plus more inspectors, which in this day and age I didn't think would get very far.

Nonetheless, we haven't reacted to this in the sense that this has all come about as a result of some of the recent media attention. This is something we've been working on for a long time. This is something our organization believed in, that this was the way to go. I know it's unusual for a government organization to say we don't want to grow, but that's what we were proposing many years ago.

Thank you.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

So this is something whose day has come. It's time to make the changes.

The other area I'm not fully convinced of, and I want to make sure our consumers have a feeling for, is the angst of if this is going to be sufficient. I'm referring to those inspectors who would operate under a private....

Are you absolutely sure that you have in place measures so you wouldn't get somebody who would collude with an independent or something? That's the question most consumers are going to ask. You're making these inspections, you've got people in place to do that, we've heard, but are you absolutely convinced you have the means of keeping these guys in check, that you've got enough legislation to make sure they will always be 100% honest?

[Alan Johnston]

When we went under these trade sector reviews, we asked all the consumer groups and the consumers who were involved if they were comfortable with the use of these recognized private technicians. We explained what they would do and how they would do it. We had 100% feedback that they were comfortable with that as long as Measurement Canada maintained that strong audit oversight role.

We've described that to you already, and I'm not going to go into that again, but to say we can be 100% certain, nothing is 100% certain. I'd love to say I can get 100% compliance at gas pumps, but it won't happen. We're reasonably assured, or strongly assured, that we have in place the measures and the sanctions to ensure that if there are issues we can deal with them quickly and decisively.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

That's all I have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren.

Monsieur Rodriguez.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will quickly ask two questions, after which I will turn the mike over to Mr. Garneau.

We touched upon the matter of how we compare ourselves, internationally, with what is being done elsewhere.

I am just wondering: the 0.05% margin for error that is acceptable according to your standards, is that what is in place in comparable countries? How is that level determined? How did you arrive at that percentage?

[Gilles Vinet]

I will answer that question.

It is the same tolerance level internationally: 0.05% for gas pumps. When the tolerance calculations are done, several factors come into play. There are financial factors, but there are also technical factors, because there is the matter of measurement uncertainty.

At a given time, it is all fine and well to have a little tolerance, but if people are not able to have measurement devices in order to do a good inspection, it is worthless. Technical uncertainty is taken into account as well as the financial impact.

In a nutshell, the 0.05% level is an international standard.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I have a question that might seem odd, but can the temperature fluctuations we experience in Canada — for example, we go from very high temperatures in the summer to very low temperatures in the winter — have an impact on the devices and on the deviation or cause some problems?

[Gilles Vinet]

It is certainly more difficult with regard to the accuracy of these measuring devices because they have to work when it is very hot in the summer and very cold in the winter. This requires more regular calibration and maintenance work.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I will quickly ask one final very short question.

We often see, when we fill up at the pump, that there is a difference between the price at the pump and the price at the cash. In such cases, it is the price at the pump that is the right one. First of all, why is there this difference? And does this happen often?

[Gilles Vinet]

It is because that legal device is inspected and certified at the gas pump.

Therefore, in the case of a problem with the console in the wicket, the legal device is the one that the consumer saw. This is why we require that the price be indicated in that way. In the case of a conflict inside, it has to be clear that it is the gas pump outside that provides the legal measurement to be used in the transaction.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Does this happen often? It has never happened to me and I am constantly at the gas station.

[Gilles Vinet]

No. As far as I know, it does not happen often.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you.