Industry Committee on July 27th, 2010

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

This would mean changing... Listen, I haven't even read the French version.

So, the words “immediately cancel the changes made to the long form” would be replaced by the words “reestablish the mandatory nature of the long form”.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Okay. Is there any debate on this amendment?

If not, we'll have Mr. Lukiwski.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Yes, thank you, Chair.

Mr. Gravelle and Mr. McTeague and others have talked about the testimony we've heard today. I would point out to all my colleagues at this committee that I think the most telling testimony appeared from the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, who said, in effect, that the mandatory requirements, including the threats and coercion, are inappropriate, and in her opinion should not be tolerated. This is the Privacy Commissioner of Canada who is opposed to the status quo.

I, for the life of me, cannot understand how opposition members can say that testimony was overwhelmingly in favour of retaining the status quo, because that, in effect, is what they're saying right now. It was not. The Privacy Commissioner, amongst many others, said that this is a real problem for her.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. Lukiwski.

We'll go to Mr. Anderson and then to Mr. McTeague.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I just have a question, actually, for Mr. McTeague.

The act says, “Any person who, without lawful excuse” refuses to furnish information “is, for every refusal or neglect, or false answer”--so it is every single question—“guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to both”.

I just want to know if his amendment includes those prior coercive elements as well. He's talking about the mandatory nature of the long-form census. We understand, then, that those coercive elements of the act are included in his amendment. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Okay, I will give the floor to Mr. McTeague to respond, but the words are the words, as they are written in the motion and the amendment.

Mr. McTeague.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Despite the adjectives and characterization by Mr. Anderson, the motion and my amendment merely restore it to where we were prior to the decision by Minister Clement to unilaterally change the forms. So the answer is yes.

Mr. Lukiwski pointed out his version of what he understood from Madam Stoddart. I asked her two questions, and confirmed one of the following. He will have heard it, but for the benefit of those who may not have been listening at the time, the number was 50 complaints in the last 20 years and three in the last 10.

More importantly, Mr. Chair, if we could put this in its proper perspective, she suggested that prior her term, many of those issues have now been resolved. There is an open hailing frequency between Statistics Canada.

She does not have the concerns as you've expressed them, Mr. Lukiwski.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. McTeague.

Monsieur Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I would like to put a question to Mr. Gravelle or to Mr. McTeague.

You stated that the government should reinstate the mandatory nature of the long form. If I understand correctly, you want to keep the so-called threat of imprisonment and fines. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Could Mr. Gravelle answer? Because...

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Mr. Petit, I'm going to give the floor to Mr. Lake.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

You know what? We can let Mr. McTeague answer that question first, and then come back.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Okay.

So Mr. Lake is yielding the floor to Mr. McTeague.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Lake.

Mr. Gravelle, with your indulgence, I think I've answered that question with respect to Mr. Anderson.

Your question is the same as Mr. Anderson's. And so the answer remains the same.

In fact, this will exist for rural regions in Canada, as well as for other things. We want to maintain the status quo. We aren't talking about the threats that have made people get angry. This may be a question that was raised somewhere by the Conservatives. According to the information we heard, currently the system is effective and necessary. And so we want to maintain the status quo.

Mr. Lake, I hope that....

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. McTeague.

Mr. Gravelle.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

I think Mr. McTeague answered it. The motion just says to reinstate the long-form census. That's all it states.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

All right.

If there's no further debate, I'll call the question on the amendment, unless there are further questions and comments on the amendment.

Go ahead, Mr. Lake.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Sorry, I just wanted to allow Mr. McTeague the chance to answer.

I know that we really want to get out of here, but I do want to get clarification, because the long-form census, right now, doesn't exist, right? The words “long-form census” don't actually refer to anything. We have a 2011 national household survey. So to get the words correct, what we probably want to refer to is making the 2011 national household survey mandatory.

Ultimately, if you look at the motion, you'll understand that I'm going to be voting against it either way, but at least I'd rather have it properly referred to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Let's deal with the amendment at hand first.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Maybe Mr. McTeague wants to revisit some of the wording to make it a little bit more accurate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

No, no, the amendment stands as it was originally moved.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

So it would refer, then, to all 47 questions, I think it is, in the new national household survey, the 2011 survey. Again, if someone doesn't want to answer them, they would be threatened with prison or a fine if they don't want to tell us their religion, for example, or what time they leave for work in the morning.

Just for clarification....

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. Lake.

Mr. McTeague, would you care to respond to that?

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Yes.